Just played my 7th 4E game

[Oni]

I haven't had a chance to play 4e yet, but this thread has brought back up a niggling question that has been in the back of my mind about it. I've seen people mention several times how glad they are to have a wizard or how much they wished they had a wizard when it comes to minions. What I wonder is, if you took minions out of the game is there any real benefit to having a wizard or is their only real use now to deal with this recent addition to the game of fragile cannon fodder?

 

[Joshua Randall]

Conceptually the wizard is still the best at true control (environmental affects, layering on debuffs)... though I don't have enough experience to assert this with 100% confidence.

If there are no minions, it just means the wizard gets to focus on the "real" monsters more. So maybe instead of thunderwave killing things, it merely (!) pushes them back -- which is still powerful, but different than slaughtering 4 minions with one action.

 

[Cadfan]

Oni- Played intelligently, a wizard is one of the highest damage dealers in the game. The trick is to remember something that 3e forgot- doing 3d6 damage to four enemies is the same as dealing 12d6 damage.

 

[thatdarnedbob]

Oni, the dwarven wizard I play currently has actually shined the most when pitted against multiple non-minion enemies. Using good tactics to deal 20+ points of damage with a single at-will power is so much more appreciated when one point wouldn't have done the same job.

 

[Rechan]

Just to offer something else, I honestly think the Wizard is one of the best at tossing around debuffs. I think Debuffs are pretty potent and important in the 4e fight. A skirmisher that is slowed is severely hampered. A brute who is weakened just had his purpose cut out from under him.

 

[cdrcjsn]

Agreed about the wizard making groups easier, regardless of whether or not they are minions.

I ran an adventure for some folks at level 15 (adaptation of what would've been an RPGA mod for our region if the living campaign hadn't ended and we were allowed more than 4 mods this year).

Two wizards (and a Tactical Warlord MCd in Wizard) in the party were extremely effective in keeping the foes separated and debuffed regardless of the type of fight they were going against.

The interesting thing to me was that I don't think they stole the spotlight from anyone else in the party, despite being so effective. Everyone got a chance to shine.

As for durations of the combats in 4e, once people get the hang of their powers, they tend to go around 45 minutes if fighting foes of equal level or less. A bit over an hour for fights at level +1. Fights at level +2 or higher can take up to an hour and a half. I've found this to be true from low to high levels. The highest I've played though is at level 18, so I'm not sure about epic levels, but I don't see why it shouldn't hold true there as well.