D&D 5E Katana in 5th edition - finesse?

[FitzTheRuke]

Right, the thing to remember is that a lot of these design choices are about modeling fiction, not reality. Finesse weapons exist so that you can have lightly armored rogues and swashbuckling fighters effectively using melee weapons in a game where the default melee ability is Strength. It's also the reason that ranged weapons use Dex (good for stealthy elves), and that light armor allows full use of Dex while heavy armor allows none. You don't want the Three Musketeers wearing plate mail, or the Grey Mouser wielding a greatsword, so you design the game with mechanical reasons for Dex-heavy characters to choose light armor and weapons.

So when asking the question about whether a katana is a finesse weapon in D&D, the answer has almost nothing to do with weight or real-world use. It depends on which katana-wielding fictional characters you intend to model in the game. Are they generally physically powerful fighters wearing suits of metal armor, or are they often lean, highly agile, lightly armored combatants? The answer to that question determines how you design the katana.

Well said.

 

[Thaumaturge]

I also look forward to getting on the D&D pronunciation guide.

No kidding. I had to look a few times to make sure I was getting the spelling correct.

thaumaturgist

Reformed.

Thaumaturge.

 

[NewJeffCT]

What do you mean short of?

Do you think if the Jedi had the noble samurai culture capable of producing katanas, that they would have stuck with the stupid flashlight swords? Heck no!!!

I stand corrected.

 

[Henry]

I am no sword expert, just interested in the normal D&D geeky way. But I went to a party where a guy brought all his swords for us to play with. I was not of the internet 'Katana are teh awesome' crowd since I was a teen, but I was out right shocked how heavy and thick it was compared to a long sword/bastard sword - so yeah finesse? I think not, no more than a long sword.

Do you know if it was a katana made by an actual swordsmith, or was it a stainless steel replica? The stainless steel jobs are both inexpensive and heavy, and not representative in any way of what would be an actual combat model -- they just look pretty. Not trying to be a "katana apologist" here, but the cheap replicas of even the european style swords are not representative, either.
That said, knowing nothing professionally, but having seen several demos of kendo, "graceful" is not really the best descriptor to me; simple and powerful strokes, yes, but they aren't meant to be light blades, either. I don't know of very many two handed grip weapons that are meant to be dexterous.

 

[mach1.9pants]

He was a 40 something single computer programmer, with cash to burn!

Yeah they were proper replicas worth thousands of dollars.

 

[Iosue]

If a longsword isn't finesse, neither is a katana. A katana is usually heavier than a longsword. A katana is also more blade heavy than a longsword. Whereas the German longsword style relies on quick, snapping counter cuts, the kenjutsu style of the katana uses powerful, two-handed cleaving blows to incapacitate the enemy. Both styles use body positioning to remove you from the enemy's reach while putting the enemy in your reach.
Here, take a look at the differences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
vs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVuGDcggm44

I am no sword expert, just interested in the normal D&D geeky way. But I went to a party where a guy brought all his swords for us to play with. I was not of the internet 'Katana are teh awesome' crowd since I was a teen, but I was out right shocked how heavy and thick it was compared to a long sword/bastard sword - so yeah finesse? I think not, no more than a long sword.

But really if you want that in your game go ahead, especially if in your world all warriors use katanas - cos they are the best there!

I know that most of the posts in this thread are tongue-in-cheek, but I actually am an expert in Japanese swordsmanship, with seven years practice in a tradition that dates back to the mid 1500s. This is me at the 4:40 mark, demonstrating Yagyu Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu.

On the subject of European vs Japanese swordsmanship, they are more alike than different. Which is not surprising given that they are both involved in humans using two-feet of sharpened steel to inflict damage on another human, typically armored. Cleaving blows are not a primary tactic in classical swordsmanship that dates back to the actual Warring States period. In these traditions, the goals are cuts and thrusts to the weak points of armor where vulnerable arteries are located. It is not expected that you will ever cut through limbs or the like. In training, big cuts are often emphasized because in the course of actual combat, the influx of adrenaline will reduce the effectiveness of fine motor control, and movements can become small and tentative. The idea is training big will ingrain full, fluid movement, and ideally counteract the psychological and physiological effects of increased adrenaline.

Here are some examples -
The first kata here is for armored combat. The cuts are all to weak points in the armor -- in particular the "winning" side cuts inside the wrist, where there is a seam in the armor, and the ulnar artery.
This clip is from a different style. It's in Japanese, but the demonstration should be clear enough.

Kendo, unfortunately, is not a good example of true combative swordsmanship. An explanation of why would be too long here, but suffice to say that it intends to focus on certain aspects apart from the technical minutia of actual combat with swords. It thus bears as much similarity to that as modern Olympic fencing does to the live blade duels of the 17th century.

On the subject of katana themselves, the history of the katana is a downward progression through the centuries. The finest blades were made during the Kamakura period (1185–1333). These were essentially cavalry sabers, made for slashing from horseback. This is generally considered when the art of swordmaking in Japan reached its peak. Such swords are extremely rare and highly, highly valuable. Most are considered national treasures, and I'm not sure there are any in private possession outside of Japan. The swords of the Sengoku period (1467–c. 1573) where also finally made, but this was a time when mass production of swords was required, leading to a loss of some of the fine techniques of swordsmithing, as quantity was emphasized over quality. Most swords of high value possessed by private collectors are from this era. The swords of the Edo period (1600-1868) where of even less quality, as it was a time of long peace, when swords became prized as status symbols rather than tools of war. These are the most common katana one finds in collections.

Many swords outside of Japan are gunto -- military swords made during the 20th century. These were machine cut, not forged. They are also crappy. Finally, there are gendaito -- modern forged swords. Quality on these can vary. They are invariably made for either decoration, for cutting practice, or for iai (sword-drawing practice), and not for combat. The remaining smiths may not even know what is required to make a katana for actual combat, since those techniques have not been in demand for over 400 years. Still, a low-end modern forged sword is generally going to run around $12,000 or so.

All live blades must be registered. Swords considered of cultural importance (most historic swords of good quality) are not allowed to be taken out of Japan.

I do not know what kind of sword mach1.9pants' friend had. It may have been a cheap wall-hanger (katana shaped hunk of iron), it may have been a mogito (non-forged, non-sharp blade made of stainless steel), which can vary widely in quality, it may have been a historic sword from the Edo period, or possibly even the Muromachi period. Perhaps even a modern, forged sword. I do know, however, that I've handled a katana from the Sengoku period, and it was absolutely wonderful, with impeccable balance that gave it an unbelievable lightness. It could easily be wielded with one-hand, and so if it were a D&D weapon it would be a versatile finesse weapon. Not all katana are like that. Heck, not all European two-handers are like that. But some are.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

All I know for certain is that a samurai with a katana is no match for a ninja with a spoon.

 

[mach1.9pants]

And a pirate will kill them both!

 

[Nikosandros]

And a pirate will kill them both!

Only if he's riding a dinosaur.

 

[Hand of Evil]

[MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] now that is an interesting gaming plot:

All live blades must be registered. Swords considered of cultural importance (most historic swords of good quality) are not allowed to be taken out of Japan.

Could see that being used in game, dwarven swords having to be returned to dwarves as cultural history. Katana smuggling, hey man in trench coat...