Keep On The Borderline

[Hussar]

Context it's not supposed to be a normal adventure
It's basically a F you designed to kill power gamers and munchkins. Gary used it on people who came up to him with Uber powerful PC or Monty haul type DMs and players. Your +5 weapons and armor won't help much.

It's not a bad adventure at all, it's designed to kill you and be unfair.

Also with players like Kuntz and Ernest they used slaves and summoned critters as cannon fodder it makes sense.

Modern players won't really get it unless they know the context of why it was designed.

Follow that rather massive thread I linked and you'll see a much better interpretation that I can provide. Basically, no, it's got nothing to do with killing power gamers and munchkins. It's a nonsensical collection of puzzles with no solutions which makes it a very, very poorly designed adventure.

Funnily enough though, the munchkin and power gamers, like Robilar, were the ones to successfully navigate the Tomb. I mean, my high level paladin with his holy avenger and psionics (hey, we were like 13 years old, ) steam rolled this thing like it wasn't even there.

The fact that you, in the same sentence say it's not a bad adventure that's designed to be unfair pretty much says it all doesn't it? If it's designed to be an unfair challenge, then it's poorly designed. Well, I guess it's a well designed unfair challenge, but you get the point.

Like Keep on the Borderlands, it's nostalgia and ubiquity that puts these modules in the "greatest hits" list. It's easy to be number one when there's no competition.

 

[Zardnaar]

Follow that rather massive thread I linked and you'll see a much better interpretation that I can provide. Basically, no, it's got nothing to do with killing power gamers and munchkins. It's a nonsensical collection of puzzles with no solutions which makes it a very, very poorly designed adventure.

Funnily enough though, the munchkin and power gamers, like Robilar, were the ones to successfully navigate the Tomb. I mean, my high level paladin with his holy avenger and psionics (hey, we were like 13 years old, ) steam rolled this thing like it wasn't even there.

The fact that you, in the same sentence say it's not a bad adventure that's designed to be unfair pretty much says it all doesn't it? If it's designed to be an unfair challenge, then it's poorly designed. Well, I guess it's a well designed unfair challenge, but you get the point.

Like Keep on the Borderlands, it's nostalgia and ubiquity that puts these modules in the "greatest hits" list. It's easy to be number one when there's no competition.

Difference is there a better Dungeon hacks than KotBL. ToH is doing what it's designed to do. Not all adventures need to be fair.

Level 13 is also very high in first Ed. You could come across + 3 to + 5 equipment a lot lower level. Holy avenger level 8 maybe frostbrand level 5 or 6.

Pregenerated PC for ToH are level 5 to 9 for the most part.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[cmad1977]

I’d say that the module is great at what it’s made for and awful at what it’s not.

 

[Zardnaar]

So ..... something to think about. If you, when you were 13, had a high level level Paladin with psionics and a holy avenger ....

And you steamrolled ToH like it wasn’t there ....

Maybe that says a lot more about your group and DM than it does about the module.

I mean, if I say that I killed Odin and all the Norse pantheon like a hot knife through butter when I was in middle school ... well, it tends to speak more of the campaign I was in than any broader points.

Level 13 1E is like level 18+ 5E. A Balor had 8+8 hit dice by comparison.

 

[pemerton]

On S1: read the account of the tournament experience in Alarums & Excursions. Besides being a relatively critical review, it shows what play techniques had currency when S1 was written: all the repetoire of classic dungeoneering (spikes, ropes, 10' poles, searching everything, etc).

B2 presumes that for the Caves, which is why I prefer the Keep!

 

[Hussar]

So ..... something to think about. If you, when you were 13, had a high level level Paladin with psionics and a holy avenger ....

And you steamrolled ToH like it wasn’t there ....

Maybe that says a lot more about your group and DM than it does about the module.

I mean, if I say that I killed Odin and all the Norse pantheon like a hot knife through butter when I was in middle school ... well, it tends to speak more of the campaign I was in than any broader points.

Hehe. Oh, yes, absolutely.

But, my point is, if the module was the answer to munchkins and powergamers, which we absolutely were back then, then it failed rather miserably. Not only did it not stop 13 year old me, but, it failed to stop players like Robliar back in the day. I wasn't trying to imply that I was any sort of a good player back then. Ye gawds, not even a little.

However, saying that something is inherently unfair, and relies on the referee being inherently unfair (something AD&D is very much against) in order to succeed at being what it is, then well, it's poorly designed. I shouldn't have to cheeseweasel in order to run the module.

 

[Zardnaar]

Hehe. Oh, yes, absolutely.

But, my point is, if the module was the answer to munchkins and powergamers, which we absolutely were back then, then it failed rather miserably. Not only did it not stop 13 year old me, but, it failed to stop players like Robliar back in the day. I wasn't trying to imply that I was any sort of a good player back then. Ye gawds, not even a little.

However, saying that something is inherently unfair, and relies on the referee being inherently unfair (something AD&D is very much against) in order to succeed at being what it is, then well, it's poorly designed. I shouldn't have to cheeseweasel in order to run the module.

It not designed to be fair, it's what makes it different. It also wasn't designed for normal campaign play.

Gary designed it around 1975 because of characters like Robilar and Tenser and how they played.

When I run it I tell the players straight up it's the Tomb of Horrors, last group gave up no big deal.

One of the young uns at the gamestore wants to play ToH it's on his bucket list. Some of them are vaguely familiar with it due to TftYP but I'll see if the will try 1E and run the original.

 

[Hussar]

It not designed to be fair, it's what makes it different. It also wasn't designed for normal campaign play.

Gary designed it around 1975 because of characters like Robilar and Tenser and how they played.

When I run it I tell the players straight up it's the Tomb of Horrors, last group gave up no big deal.

One of the young uns at the gamestore wants to play ToH it's on his bucket list. Some of them are vaguely familiar with it due to TftYP but I'll see if the will try 1E and run the original.

Agreed. Being unfair DOES make it different from other modules. Other modules are well designed.

 

[Zardnaar]

Agreed. Being unfair DOES make it different from other modules. Other modules are well designed.

Erm Forest Oracle?