Chaltab
Legend
Of course it's not unbridgeable. Mortals become gods all the time in D&D.
D&D General Killing Gods
- Thread starter BookTenTiger
- Start date
Marandahir
Crown-Forester (he/him)
I love the Xeno series games, and killing god is a baked in from the very first title in 1998. 
It's a good reference.
It's a good reference.In my first 5E campaign, the players eventually faced Lolth in the Demonwebs. Using a magical Lanthorne artifact, they forced her to flee, severely crippling her power.
In my latest 5E campaign, we're running Vecna: Eve of Ruin, where they'll face off against the God of Secrets himself.
In my latest 5E campaign, we're running Vecna: Eve of Ruin, where they'll face off against the God of Secrets himself.
Then "god" is just like... a type of creature. It isn't actually divine or "outside" the realm of every day people.
Marandahir
Crown-Forester (he/him)
That's the fundamental challenge WotC have to negotiate around. They seem to have come down upon the side of "the God is divine and unfightable unless they invest so much of their energies into a ritual that they lose their divinity temporarily."
I think one of the Xeno games explores fighting God better than most games do, because there it actually feels insurmountalbe and then is surmountable but only because of the nature of the story, not because God has a level and a HP count, a la the "if you meet the Buddha in a random encounter in a JPRG, you must fight him" trope etc.
Composer99
Hero
One interesting thought that occurs to me is that, at least in D&D, god-slaying is not a revolutionary act. If anything, it is usually enforcing a status quo.
For instance, in Rime of the Frostmaiden, Auril has cast Icewind Dale in perpetual darkness - that is, Auril has broken the status quo of the day/night cycle in Icewind Dale. Although the player characters can't permanently destroy Auril, they can "slay" her (insofar as they do destroy her bodily manifestation). Doing so ends her disruptive activity and restores the status quo of the cycle of day and night.
As another example, in Tyranny of Dragons, Tiamat and the Cult of the Dragon are trying to completely upend the status quo in the northwest of Faerûn, destroying it in order to replace it with a new status quo wherein dragons (chromatic dragons to be precise) are "large and in charge" as opposed to all the tiny folk. The player characters, and the coalition assembled to fight Tiamat, are trying to prevent this destruction or, if Tiamat wins in Rise of Tiamat, try to restore the prior status quo (or something like it) in future adventures.
In JRPGs, by contrast, god-slaying often breaks the status quo. In Final Fantasy 10, you're pretty obviously putting an end to a long cycle of the Yu Yevon system and the entity of Sin. In some games, such acts can also be undertaken to restore an older, "organic" status quo that no longer exists or to preserve one that exists only in idyllic enclaves and is under threat. In Final Fantasy 7, for instance, you're fighting against both the "establishment god", Shinra, and the "revolutionary gods" Jenova and Sephiroth.
(In early JRPGs, such as Final Fantasy or Final Fantasy IV, the god-slaying looks a bit more like upholding a status quo - consider Final Fantasy IV or VI, where the plot is driven by Zeromus or Kefka trying to overthrow the existing world order and replace it with their own, such as it is. If the video on this topic found upthread is any guide, I expect that would have to do with the fact that most of these games were produced in the 1980s or early 1990s.)
For instance, in Rime of the Frostmaiden, Auril has cast Icewind Dale in perpetual darkness - that is, Auril has broken the status quo of the day/night cycle in Icewind Dale. Although the player characters can't permanently destroy Auril, they can "slay" her (insofar as they do destroy her bodily manifestation). Doing so ends her disruptive activity and restores the status quo of the cycle of day and night.
As another example, in Tyranny of Dragons, Tiamat and the Cult of the Dragon are trying to completely upend the status quo in the northwest of Faerûn, destroying it in order to replace it with a new status quo wherein dragons (chromatic dragons to be precise) are "large and in charge" as opposed to all the tiny folk. The player characters, and the coalition assembled to fight Tiamat, are trying to prevent this destruction or, if Tiamat wins in Rise of Tiamat, try to restore the prior status quo (or something like it) in future adventures.
In JRPGs, by contrast, god-slaying often breaks the status quo. In Final Fantasy 10, you're pretty obviously putting an end to a long cycle of the Yu Yevon system and the entity of Sin. In some games, such acts can also be undertaken to restore an older, "organic" status quo that no longer exists or to preserve one that exists only in idyllic enclaves and is under threat. In Final Fantasy 7, for instance, you're fighting against both the "establishment god", Shinra, and the "revolutionary gods" Jenova and Sephiroth.
(In early JRPGs, such as Final Fantasy or Final Fantasy IV, the god-slaying looks a bit more like upholding a status quo - consider Final Fantasy IV or VI, where the plot is driven by Zeromus or Kefka trying to overthrow the existing world order and replace it with their own, such as it is. If the video on this topic found upthread is any guide, I expect that would have to do with the fact that most of these games were produced in the 1980s or early 1990s.)
dave2008
Legend
Fundamental difference I get, by why unbridgeable?
However, I am also one who favors, as I mentioned earlier, a more tiered and nuanced definition of the divine.
dave2008
Legend
Why can't a god be both a type of creature and also outside the realm of every day people?
Chaltab
Legend
Exactly. In 4E a creature that isn't at least level 21 can't even damage a god and obviously they have discorporation that you have to find some way to thwart to kill them for real. There's a gulf enough between high level PCs and random civilians that PCs often seem like gods to them. The actual gods of D&D are a step beyond that.
BookTenTiger
Sad Dad of the Revolution
I guess my understanding of what a god is comes more from pulp stories like Conan. Sure, no one is going to be fighting Crom, but there are plenty of other weird, little gods to fight out there. People are always worshipping the Weird Thing in the Well, the Divine Sorcerer, the Bear God.
In my last campaign, the gods of the region were revealed to be intelligences who had fled some far realm and arrived in the form of falling stars. They manifested as giant animals, a dragon, an aboleth, etc., and were worshiped by the people of the land. Some became allies of the characters, others were definitely enemies!
In my last campaign, the gods of the region were revealed to be intelligences who had fled some far realm and arrived in the form of falling stars. They manifested as giant animals, a dragon, an aboleth, etc., and were worshiped by the people of the land. Some became allies of the characters, others were definitely enemies!
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