Thanee
First Post
This is not really about paladins, but rather about the question, whether it is acceptable - given the right circumstances - to kill innocents in order to preserve the greater good, essentially. The question, when you have to choose between few deaths and many deaths, and there is (or at least appears to be) no way around it.
Here's the situation... with a bit of background information.
Our party (a paladin of Heironeous, her squire, another paladin of Heironeous (NPC), an exalted druid (no, he does not have VoP), and my sorceress) have been fighting against a huge threat for quite some time already. In the past, we managed to obtain a few items, not quite artifacts, but fairly powerful magical items, magical stones keyed to various planes, which together can be used to create a gate to a distant plane, which the evil powers we are opposing want to use for their nefarious ends. Let's just say, that it would not be good, if they would be able to obtain them all, but we also cannot simply destroy them.
Furthermore, our country is at war, a huge war (there are even gods involved somehow), and we are among the few left behind to protect the country. We have a region under our protection, where we often clash with the forces of said evil power, and where many of the stones could be found, certainly the reason for their involvement there.
Anyways, we were on a ship to an island, where we suspected another of the magical stones to be found, the last one needed, actually, we already have the other five. At one morning, suddenly some of the passengers became sick, us four included. We quickly found out, that we have been poisoned, along with a number of other passengers, quite randomly chosen. Now our druid could heal some of the poisoned ones, but not all of them, because the poison was rather deadly, it was inevitable, that some of the victims would die. We offered the wealthier passengers the chance of Reincarnation, but also made clear, that we do not have the coins to buy the material components; they gladly offered those, naturally.
Now the problems began.
The murderer, who had poisoned us, obviously had spread the rumor, that we were responsible for it, and were trying to make money with this whole poison story. The captain of the ship believed him and a while later approached us together with some guards and asked us to surrender our weapons. Ok, this was pretty ridiculous, the paladin told them, who she was, but they just replied, that she could have made this up, and they wouldn't believe her. Also, the fact, that we used magic to heal some of the passengers and were poisoned ourselves did not make them reconsider.
In order to prevent a fight, we surrendered our weapons, but warned the captain about his possible mistake, and also demanded that the equipment was kept locked up and guarded in his cabin, so the murderer could not get to them and use them. The captain agreed to that at least.
So, we were locked up and a while later two guards came and asked the paladin to follow them. The druid was next, than I.
When I was brought in, there was the captain, his second-in-command and a low-level priest who also helped against the poison, but did not have the means to cure it, along with the two guards. On the table, the captain had the magical stones, the other two had on them. Our weapons were piled up in a corner (this was not the captains cabin). They asked me to surrender all magic items and let them put me in chains. They told me, that they found a vial of poison among the paladin's stuff.
It was quite obvious, what happened. The murderer had used the confusion and planted the vial there. It was absolutely impossible, that the paladin did the poisoning. Not unlikely, 100% impossible. The captain also had obviously broken his promise to keep the stuff safe. maybe he was involved, too? Quite likely, the murderer was close to him at least, otherwise it would probably not have been possible to convince him of this story with false paladins and adventurers who possessed the power to heal poison, who were out for a few quick coins.
As my two companions before, I tried to explain and convince them of this, but they would not listen. The captain then said, that I could either let them put me in chain, or they would force me. I told him, that I will stop them and have the means to stop them, if they force me to it. The problem, why I could not let them proceed was simple. Once chained up and defenseless, the murderer - who was quite clearly there to kill us, why else would all four of us get poisoned along with other random passengers and then get blamed for it, and most likely to retrieve the stones - would have an easy time to do his work then, especially with the captain, who seemed to trust him, whoever he was - certainly one of the three men there. If I would allow that, the evil powers would get what they wanted and many, many people would suffer and die. To let them proceed now would mean to abandon my promise to protect the land. Now, I'm not a paladin, not even close, but I do take my promises seriously. I really wondered, why the other two had not tried to stop them, but since there were no signs of a fight, they most likely gave in to their requests.
When the time ran out, I kicked back the chair I was seated on, made a step backwards and placed a Fireball right in their midst, sparing only the two guards at the door. Three failed saves and a roll of 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 3 (LOL, can't you roll like this when you don't shoot at low-level NPCs!?) later, we had three smoldering corpses and two panicked guards in the room. I told them to go quench the quickly spreading fire, and that there was no reason to continue this fight with them, unless they gave me one. They listened. The first thing I did, before that even, was to see, if the three could be stabilized, but they were immediately dead.
The crew could not manage to control the fire, and once I had secured the stones of my companions and our weapons from the room (I hid them in the cargo room, where we had left my mount, a dire wolverine, no less, and the celestial wolf companion of the druid, whom I told in celestial to guard them, as I did with my wolverine, using Handle Animal), when I came back saw the problems with the fire, I invoked the power of my stone (keyed to the plane of water) and placed a Wall of Ice on the deck over the cabin, so the heat would melt it and the water would rain down on it, as well as two more inside the now burning room, to suffocate the fire. It worked.
Of course, the problem with the three dead people, among them the ship's captain, remained...
I could have escaped, quite easily, but I could not leave the ship, so that would only delay and worsen the problem. I could not subdue them, I simply don't have a spell which does that, and trying to knock them out with my hands seemed not to be a very bright thing to do, not to mention, that there could have been someone seriously dangerous person among them. The only two viable options I could see were to either let them proceed or to fight them at full force, since going any lower, like attacking just one with a Magic Missile, would not have stopped them.
Ok, that's pretty much the important part of the story, now my question...
Do you think it was right or wrong to attack the captain and the other two men with killing force?
And if you think it was not, what would you have done in this situation, all things considered?
Bye
Thanee
Here's the situation... with a bit of background information.
Our party (a paladin of Heironeous, her squire, another paladin of Heironeous (NPC), an exalted druid (no, he does not have VoP), and my sorceress) have been fighting against a huge threat for quite some time already. In the past, we managed to obtain a few items, not quite artifacts, but fairly powerful magical items, magical stones keyed to various planes, which together can be used to create a gate to a distant plane, which the evil powers we are opposing want to use for their nefarious ends. Let's just say, that it would not be good, if they would be able to obtain them all, but we also cannot simply destroy them.
Furthermore, our country is at war, a huge war (there are even gods involved somehow), and we are among the few left behind to protect the country. We have a region under our protection, where we often clash with the forces of said evil power, and where many of the stones could be found, certainly the reason for their involvement there.
Anyways, we were on a ship to an island, where we suspected another of the magical stones to be found, the last one needed, actually, we already have the other five. At one morning, suddenly some of the passengers became sick, us four included. We quickly found out, that we have been poisoned, along with a number of other passengers, quite randomly chosen. Now our druid could heal some of the poisoned ones, but not all of them, because the poison was rather deadly, it was inevitable, that some of the victims would die. We offered the wealthier passengers the chance of Reincarnation, but also made clear, that we do not have the coins to buy the material components; they gladly offered those, naturally.
Now the problems began.
The murderer, who had poisoned us, obviously had spread the rumor, that we were responsible for it, and were trying to make money with this whole poison story. The captain of the ship believed him and a while later approached us together with some guards and asked us to surrender our weapons. Ok, this was pretty ridiculous, the paladin told them, who she was, but they just replied, that she could have made this up, and they wouldn't believe her. Also, the fact, that we used magic to heal some of the passengers and were poisoned ourselves did not make them reconsider.
In order to prevent a fight, we surrendered our weapons, but warned the captain about his possible mistake, and also demanded that the equipment was kept locked up and guarded in his cabin, so the murderer could not get to them and use them. The captain agreed to that at least.
So, we were locked up and a while later two guards came and asked the paladin to follow them. The druid was next, than I.
When I was brought in, there was the captain, his second-in-command and a low-level priest who also helped against the poison, but did not have the means to cure it, along with the two guards. On the table, the captain had the magical stones, the other two had on them. Our weapons were piled up in a corner (this was not the captains cabin). They asked me to surrender all magic items and let them put me in chains. They told me, that they found a vial of poison among the paladin's stuff.
It was quite obvious, what happened. The murderer had used the confusion and planted the vial there. It was absolutely impossible, that the paladin did the poisoning. Not unlikely, 100% impossible. The captain also had obviously broken his promise to keep the stuff safe. maybe he was involved, too? Quite likely, the murderer was close to him at least, otherwise it would probably not have been possible to convince him of this story with false paladins and adventurers who possessed the power to heal poison, who were out for a few quick coins.
As my two companions before, I tried to explain and convince them of this, but they would not listen. The captain then said, that I could either let them put me in chain, or they would force me. I told him, that I will stop them and have the means to stop them, if they force me to it. The problem, why I could not let them proceed was simple. Once chained up and defenseless, the murderer - who was quite clearly there to kill us, why else would all four of us get poisoned along with other random passengers and then get blamed for it, and most likely to retrieve the stones - would have an easy time to do his work then, especially with the captain, who seemed to trust him, whoever he was - certainly one of the three men there. If I would allow that, the evil powers would get what they wanted and many, many people would suffer and die. To let them proceed now would mean to abandon my promise to protect the land. Now, I'm not a paladin, not even close, but I do take my promises seriously. I really wondered, why the other two had not tried to stop them, but since there were no signs of a fight, they most likely gave in to their requests.
When the time ran out, I kicked back the chair I was seated on, made a step backwards and placed a Fireball right in their midst, sparing only the two guards at the door. Three failed saves and a roll of 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 3 (LOL, can't you roll like this when you don't shoot at low-level NPCs!?) later, we had three smoldering corpses and two panicked guards in the room. I told them to go quench the quickly spreading fire, and that there was no reason to continue this fight with them, unless they gave me one. They listened. The first thing I did, before that even, was to see, if the three could be stabilized, but they were immediately dead.
The crew could not manage to control the fire, and once I had secured the stones of my companions and our weapons from the room (I hid them in the cargo room, where we had left my mount, a dire wolverine, no less, and the celestial wolf companion of the druid, whom I told in celestial to guard them, as I did with my wolverine, using Handle Animal), when I came back saw the problems with the fire, I invoked the power of my stone (keyed to the plane of water) and placed a Wall of Ice on the deck over the cabin, so the heat would melt it and the water would rain down on it, as well as two more inside the now burning room, to suffocate the fire. It worked.
Of course, the problem with the three dead people, among them the ship's captain, remained...
I could have escaped, quite easily, but I could not leave the ship, so that would only delay and worsen the problem. I could not subdue them, I simply don't have a spell which does that, and trying to knock them out with my hands seemed not to be a very bright thing to do, not to mention, that there could have been someone seriously dangerous person among them. The only two viable options I could see were to either let them proceed or to fight them at full force, since going any lower, like attacking just one with a Magic Missile, would not have stopped them.
Ok, that's pretty much the important part of the story, now my question...
Do you think it was right or wrong to attack the captain and the other two men with killing force?
And if you think it was not, what would you have done in this situation, all things considered?
Bye
Thanee
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