D&D 5E Knock Unconscious and Massive Damage

[77IM]

Reminds me of a situation in Cyberpunk 2020 where I wanted to just knock someone out and rolled very well.

I killed him instead. Never really enjoyed playing with that game ref.

Is rolling high the same as rolling well?

I usually interpret a high roll as indicating some degree of skill. It always annoys me when my character's high bonus or die results make me more likely to screw up. E.g., I had a DM (back in the 3e days) who said when you roll a 1 on an attack you have to attack an ally -- using your full bonus. Shouldn't someone with a high attack bonus be LESS likely to hit an ally?

That said, I also think it's super-cheesy that a PC can deal huge amounts of damage with a giant nasty sword and then after-the-fact declare "oh I just knocked him out." So I think the sap is a good solution there, or some other house rule. But I'd try to discuss that with my players ahead of time.

 

[Uchawi]

You can always use the pommel of the weapon, so a sap is not required.

 

[Paraxis]

Or just chop, slash, stab them and take them down to 0 h.p like the rules say you can, and call it knocking them out.

Gregor the half orc barbarian using great weapon master and reckless attacking while raging and wielding a magical vicious greataxe ,crits doing 3d12+22 damage to a guard npc with only 11 h.p. The DM starts to describe the guards head coming off his shoulders when the players speaks up and says no I just drop him to 0 h.p I don't want to deal with murder charges in town, Gregor will just ko him.

That is the rule, just use the rules. Doesn't have to declare an intent to knock out before the attack, can use any melee weapon, can critically hit, can be raging, smiting, or sneak attacking. About the only thing that doesn't work is rolling a 20 with a vorpal weapon.

 

[iserith]

That is the rule, just use the rules. Doesn't have to declare an intent to knock out before the attack, can use any melee weapon, can critically hit, can be raging, smiting, or sneak attacking. About the only thing that doesn't work is rolling a 20 with a vorpal weapon.

Practically speaking, it is better in my view if the player does declare his intent that he or she is seeking to knock out the target as early on as possible . That way if it does come down to trading blows, the DM knows how to best narrate the results of the adventurers' actions and won't start down the road of mortal injuries and decapitations.

 

[evilbob]

Rogue: "I hurry through the bushes and try to knock the stable boy unconcious with the handle of my blade. I'll use the auto-crit and sneak attack to make sure"
<rolls like 35 damage, stable boy only has 6 hp>
Me: "Hmm... let me check the rules for a moment. I think... I'm afraid you sort of... cracked his head open?"
Rogue: "Oh gods, oh gods, he was just a kid! I only wanted to let the horse loose for distraction!"
Me: "Yeah, well... <checking the rules for an exception>... I'm sorry, man."
Rogue: "I still check his pockets, though. What? I didn't WANT to kill him, but that's spilled milk. Pockets"

Ok, first off: this is comic gold. LOVE IT!

Second, the whole "knock them out" thing always bugged me. I understand that cutting back on the "murder hobo" thing is worth striving for, and yeah, it's a trope from movies and TV, but it is just as much of a fantasy as dragons and sorcerers. Knocking someone out - like they do in the movies - is nearly impossible. Why do you think the anesthesiologist's part of the bill it's so freakin' high? Because it's REALLY, REALLY HARD to do what they do. It's nearly impossible to knock someone out by hitting them in the head exactly once: you're either going to just kill them, or stun them for a moment. And even if you did manage to somehow get just the right amount of force in just the right place to actually cause unconsciousness, it would only last a few seconds at most. "Knocking someone out" for entire minutes at a time usually just causes permanent brain damage or death - also see: boxers in their later years. The way to knock someone out safely is to use chemicals - but those depend entirely on the weight / body type of the creature, which is really difficult to just guess by looking at someone.

Anyway, all that to say: the sleep spell. Seriously. Use it.

 

[jodyjohnson]

it's a trope from movies and TV, but it is just as much of a fantasy as dragons and sorcerers.

This is all the argument we need for our game.

 

[jodyjohnson]

That said, I also think it's super-cheesy that a Fire Giant can deal huge amounts of damage with a giant nasty sword and then ...

... the PC rests for an hour and recovers completely.

We have some variance on how we like our hit points and we have some variance on how easy we want it to be to knock out foes.

Having different editions handle the 'knock out' differently gives some validation for using any of the existing rules (by edition) to handle this.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

A good AdHoc solution for "massive subdual damage far beyond the target's hit points" (e.g., doing 35 points of subdual damage to someone with 6 hit points) would be to simply require a saving throw.

Use the same DC as Coup De Grace. Success = he's knocked out (i.e., his body somehow managed to endure the trauma.) Failure = he dies.

The reason? Think about it this way: a big, tough, brawny boxer crowns another big, tough, brawny boxer on the head and knocks him out... ok, seems reasonable. But if that same boxer crowns a 12-year old stable boy with the same amount of force? You do the math.

It may sound harsh, but the harshness really comes from the player's inconsiderate attitude. Braining a kid just to get him out of the way? REALLY?

If you can sneak UP on someone, you can sneak PAST someone.

The problem here is, people don't stop to think about the consequences of their actions. There is more to roleplaying than giving your character a few quirky traits, a colorful wardrobe, and an accent. Very few people treat these situations with the seriousness that they truly require.

What would you do in real life, if you were trying to get past a kid like that? Unless you're a mafia hit man with no moral compass, chances are, you'd try your best not to hurt him.

If I were the DM in this case, that stable boy would return as a Solar with 20 Fighter Levels, and force the Rogue to complete a quest of atonement. FOR REAL. No joke. I would NOT let that pass.

 

[Cristian Andreu]

Practically speaking, it is better in my view if the player does declare his intent that he or she is seeking to knock out the target as early on as possible . That way if it does come down to trading blows, the DM knows how to best narrate the results of the adventurers' actions and won't start down the road of mortal injuries and decapitations.

I agree with this. I think it flows better with the storytelling if the player first announces he's trying to knock the guy out rather than just attack and say it after, regardless of the fact the rules do not seem to specify when you have to make the call.

Meh. As usual with our kind we over do they need for codified rules for every situation. A lot of die rolling for no real purpose.

To be honest, I usually bend the rules a bit if they become too complicated for a specific situation. But part of the point of that session was so that the whole group could experience 5e before we decided whether to switch over from Pathfinder entirely or play both in paralel, so the plan was to stick to the rules as much as possible and watch them in action.

 

[evilbob]

This is all the argument we need for our game.

Well, yeah, obviously, that's why I said that - wasn't saying there's not a place for it in D&D. Just that it bugged me, personally. (And we still use those rules anyway because it's just too darn convenient, and 99% of people accept the trope anyway.)