Kobold Adept4 - Balanced CR1?

[Scion]

It sounds like the kobold has a decent chance of seriously wounding roughly one party member and then that is one dead kobold.

That sounds pretty CR 1 to me

hey dcollins, if the fighter type guy was missing his racial feat then was it a valid comparison? What exactly were the stats of each that you put in.

After all, even a simple thing as weapon focus is likely to change the outcome quite a bit. For the warrior d4-1 damage (avg 1.75 per hit), even with a good crit range, will take quite a few rounds to wear down the fighter type, who likely only needs to get two hits in to finish off the other guy.

 

[dcollins]

I kinda suspected that. It's very, very easy to forget. That'd be rather unusual. 'cause WS requires being a Ftr4.

Yeesh. Then I guess it graduates up to Cleave, which definitely wouldn't come into play.

 

[Kalendraf]

For the lowbie fighter in the simulation, a feat like Toughness might be worth examining. Otherwise, if dex is sufficient, maybe try Dodge? I can see why Power Attack might be more difficult to handle in the simulator and as was pointed out, in 1-on-1 combat, Cleave would never come into play.

Changing gears...

I think most of us agree that a Kobold NPC4 looks to be more like a CR2 encounter. With that in mind, what conclusions can we draw about the Goblin's CR = NPC level-2 rule? Does that pose a similar problem? Or is it more balanced?

To get the ball rolling, the primary differences would seem to be in the racial stat modifiers. In the case of the kobold it was -4 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON. For the goblin it is -2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CHA. Beyond some skill differences, the only other major difference appears to be the kobold's +1 natural armor. Thus, the goblin will be slightly stronger and more robust than the kobold, but suffer a slightly worse AC.

Lifting and facelifting Jolly Giant's Kobold Warrior here and changing him to a Goblin Warrior 3:

Goblin warrior 3:

STR 10, DEX 15, CON 11, INT 9, WIS 10, CHA 6

Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Possessions: MW Shortsword, Heavy Shield, Breastplate, Light Crossbow

With this build, the goblin has:

HP: 14
Initiative: +6
AC: 20 (+1 size, +2 DEX, +2 shield, +5 armor)
F/R/W: 3/3/1
Short Sword: +7 melee (1D4, 19-20/x2)
Crossbow: +6 ranged (1D6, 19-20/x2)

To me, that looks much closer to a CR1, at least much closer than the Kobold Warrior 4 turned out to be. Still, the goblin war3 has a decent AC and relatively high hit points for a CR1 encounter. Damage output will be slightly higher w/o any strength penalty.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I think the Kobold NPC4s are a little overpowered, yes.

From a DM standpoint, though, that can be a mixed bag. KNOWING they're a tad overpowered you can choose whether or not to throw alot of them at your PCs. I think you'll find, in a stand-up fight, that they'll get smacked down pretty quickly. I'm sure the intent wasn't to have ONE buff little NPC Kobold thrash on a 1st level party ... but to have Kobolds that stood a chance of touching higher level PCs that didn't dish them out buckets and buckets of XP for the trouble of sweeping them out the door.

For my part, I've always wanted to figure out a back-end level adjustment for weak races like Kobold and Goblin for PCs.

--fje

 

[Ferret]

Has everyone forgotten about the Adepts familiar? Or is that not much of a boost? Also don't forget sleep, can be a nasty spell.

 

[Kalendraf]

Has everyone forgotten about the Adepts familiar? Or is that not much of a boost?

Most of the familiars contribute +3 to a skill, so in a combat situation those aren't likely to be much of a factor. One to certainly consider is the good ole' Toad giving the owner an extra +3 HP. Combined with Toughness, that's +6 hp which could easily translate into an extra round of survival or more.

So yes, we probably should be considering the familiar in this analysis of the adept.

Also don't forget sleep, can be a nasty spell.

No one is questioning sleep's nastiness. However, whether sleep is cast by a 1st level Adept or a 4th level Adept, the effect is likely to be essentially the same. Either some of the partymembers make their saves and survive to wake their teammates, or they all fail and it leads to a massive TPK/capture/whatever. The only difference due to caster level is duration (and possibly DC w/ a stat bump). Most fights are decided in under 10 rounds, so the extra duration from a higher level caster isn't going to be a factor.

 

[Scion]

Sleep has that nasty 1 round casting time. Along with other party members being able to simply wake the others up.

Even the burning hands has about 0 chance of actually killing anyone (d4hd type, con 8, dex 8, 3 hp, reflex -1 rolling 13 or more on 4d4, and failing the reflex save)

The big thing is his hp, 4d6+4*con makes for a tough amount to get through.

Definately an interesting comparison Unfortunately parts of it come down to the CR system being a bit odd, especially in the realm of pc and npc character classes. (at higher levels it becomes even more apparent, since it is assumed that 4 characters will be going against a single creature of the appropriate CR)

 

[Kalendraf]

Unfortunately parts of it come down to the CR system being a bit odd

Sadly, that seems to be the case all-to-often when I start looking into it closer. IMHO, WotC seemed to clean up some of the CR problems between 3e to 3.5, but there are still some areas like this one w/ the Kobold NPC CR-rating that make me wonder how they arrived at the number.

I'm sure the intent wasn't to have ONE buff little NPC Kobold thrash on a 1st level party

Possibly, but then again there's nothing in the rules to really prevent it either. A newbie DM (or even an experienced one w/o much time to evaluate things) could be tempted to toss something like a Kobold Adept4 or Warrior4 at a 1st level party. By (blindly) applying the -3 CR rule in the kobold entry, he'd expect a balanced combat. Yet as we've seen, it's quite likely to be a much more difficult challenge. After the battle, the DM will probably be a bit wiser and realize something is amiss. But by then it could be too late, as his new players may decide, "I don't like this game. That stupid little kobold wiped us out. Let's try something else."

 

[Scion]

Actually, I would expect most 1st level parties to be able to take the guy out every time.

With the numbers that dcollins gave, which apparently ignore racial considerations, a single character took out the other 28% of the time. This means that with two characters success is effectively guarenteed, with four?

 

[Kid Socrates]

At work, so the SRD or the DMG isn't right in front of me, but I honestly can't remember -- does the Adept's spellcasting require a stat of 10 + the spell's level? 'Cause in that case, the basic kobold can't be an adept, and to shift things so he can, he'd probably lose other benefits. But if the adept doesn't need that score as a pre-req, then it's a non-factor.