LANTERN ARCHON -- ideas on EL
- Thread starter brehobit
- Start date
Maybe something along the lines of the CR adjustment for the Half-Celestial/Fiend templates, except in reverse, would work. Though, I'd think that their LA should be +0 before 20th level, at level 20, it's all about the gear, and they can't use much of anything, or carry anything either.
In consideration, a Scout build would be better than a rogue build. AC boost and Damage boost, bigger Hit Die, pretty good class abilities, though, it would be an unusual scout build, but, it could work out pretty well.
Reason I'd go with Scout over Rogue is because of both the fact that scouts get an AC boost, which a Lantern Archon is gonna need help with, and because it's generally easier to get skirmish than Sneak Attack, what with the lack of armament to flank with. A Lantern Archon's AC isn't going to be that great, +1 size, +4 natural, + Dex, which means he's going to have a lower rate of increasing his AC - about the only magic items they can use are ioun stones, and that's not the best of ways to boost AC, and they're not really going to be the stand-in-one-place-and-fight-until-everybody's-finished types, they're going to be moving around. These guys would be good at hitting behind enemy lines at spellcasters, but they'd have to ready actions to hit the casters as they started to cast a spell.
In consideration, a Scout build would be better than a rogue build. AC boost and Damage boost, bigger Hit Die, pretty good class abilities, though, it would be an unusual scout build, but, it could work out pretty well.
Reason I'd go with Scout over Rogue is because of both the fact that scouts get an AC boost, which a Lantern Archon is gonna need help with, and because it's generally easier to get skirmish than Sneak Attack, what with the lack of armament to flank with. A Lantern Archon's AC isn't going to be that great, +1 size, +4 natural, + Dex, which means he's going to have a lower rate of increasing his AC - about the only magic items they can use are ioun stones, and that's not the best of ways to boost AC, and they're not really going to be the stand-in-one-place-and-fight-until-everybody's-finished types, they're going to be moving around. These guys would be good at hitting behind enemy lines at spellcasters, but they'd have to ready actions to hit the casters as they started to cast a spell.
pawsplay
Hero
I am retreating from my origional +5. Their low ability scores and equipment problems are each work a -1.
That said, I think they would work really well as a fighter. Since their rays ignore DR, it seems like what you want to do is boost your damage as high as possible and fire off as many attacks as possible. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization would go a long way toward this goal, and since you only have one attack, you might as well throw in Improved Critical, Power Critcal, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization. Although it's weird, I believe Rapid Shot is legal; it is a ranged attack, and their entry presents the attack as none other than a natural attack. Nothing in Improved Natural Attack seems to prevent it from working on those light rays, either. Their light rays are, after all, natural weapons, and are (Ex), not spell-like.
That said, I think they would work really well as a fighter. Since their rays ignore DR, it seems like what you want to do is boost your damage as high as possible and fire off as many attacks as possible. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization would go a long way toward this goal, and since you only have one attack, you might as well throw in Improved Critical, Power Critcal, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization. Although it's weird, I believe Rapid Shot is legal; it is a ranged attack, and their entry presents the attack as none other than a natural attack. Nothing in Improved Natural Attack seems to prevent it from working on those light rays, either. Their light rays are, after all, natural weapons, and are (Ex), not spell-like.
Yeah, he's got crap hit points, AC, and attack bonus - but you forgot his DR 10/magic and evil, that combined with a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves, assuming a failed save against the Aura of Menace (though, that save is not gonna be that tough), will help. He's still gonna go down pretty fast, despite that.Question said:
Though, he's got crap a lot of stuff in general.
Even with keeping their teleport ability, it's not actually the most help, they can take 50lbs of objects (theoretically), but how're they gonna hold/carry the objects to take them with? It's essentially just able to teleport itself.
Theoretically, by the RAW, a basic Lantern Archon can carry up to 7.5lbs as a heavy load, but I just don't see that working out too well.
Something else against them, they can only fly, in any sort of wind effect, they're screwed, that's pretty big if you use wind effects a lot in your game. What're they gonna do? Stuff themselves in somebody's pack?
They can't use a lot of good skills, UMD, Use Rope, Open Lock, Disable Device, anything that requires physically manipulation of an object, not sure how that'd work with Escape Artist(how'd you tie one up?) or Tumble. They probably wouldn't be that good at Hiding, but would have trouble making much noise, I might houserule that they can turn the light off with a successful Concentration check with a DC of probably between 10 and 15, with checks required as a free action every few rounds to keep the light off.
Add that to the fact that they're getting fewer skill points from their Int penalty ..
moritheil
First Post
Stalker0 said:
I mentioned not one, but two rogue builds (opportunist and sniper.) My point is that there are several that do not work - as you pointed out, it cannot flank. Furthermore, lantern archons cannot extinguish their glow.
If you can build a lantern archon rogue that would be competitive at high levels, feel free to.
They would have trouble setting up situations where they can attack a target denied Dex to AC - they'd get to sneak attack only once or twice in a given battle at most. Scratch the rogue sniper idea, Stalker0.
I don't think that there'd be much in the way of rogue builds that would really work well with a Lantern Archon, except perhaps a spokesperson .. but for that he might as well be a bard, except for the low damage potential.
You could probably houserule that a Lantern Archon adds the positive modifier only, from a mental ability score, to damage with their light rays. That would mean that they're not totally screwed in combat against undead or constructs .. maybe a houserule giving bonus damage against undead and creatures vulnerable to light would be in order.
Just realized something, they've got the extraplanar subtype, so they'd probably get banished. That's gotta be a -1 or -1/2 LA by itself. But combined with all the other penalties they get, I don't see a +4 or +5 LA.
Maybe LA +3 for 4 or less HD, 5-7 HD LA+2, 8-10 HD LA +1, 11+ HD LA+0.
I don't think that there'd be much in the way of rogue builds that would really work well with a Lantern Archon, except perhaps a spokesperson .. but for that he might as well be a bard, except for the low damage potential.
You could probably houserule that a Lantern Archon adds the positive modifier only, from a mental ability score, to damage with their light rays. That would mean that they're not totally screwed in combat against undead or constructs .. maybe a houserule giving bonus damage against undead and creatures vulnerable to light would be in order.
Just realized something, they've got the extraplanar subtype, so they'd probably get banished. That's gotta be a -1 or -1/2 LA by itself. But combined with all the other penalties they get, I don't see a +4 or +5 LA.
Maybe LA +3 for 4 or less HD, 5-7 HD LA+2, 8-10 HD LA +1, 11+ HD LA+0.
moritheil
First Post
Addendum: It's worth mentioning that there are cheesy ways around several of these limitations, but overall, with LA+4 (by the book) or greater, even those are hard-pressed to make a lantern archon rogue competitive at high levels.
At low levels, of course, one must concur that fly, MCvE, and teleport are very useful.
At low levels, of course, one must concur that fly, MCvE, and teleport are very useful.
Question
First Post
DR10/magic and evil has to be one of the most common DRs to bypass ever, for monsters and NPCs. Its like asking the players to bypass DR10/magic and good. +1 holy weapons are a common staple for adventuring parties as they expect to encounter a lot of evil enemies.......and a lot of encounters can conceivably use unholy weapons as well(or have DR10/evil and magic in the first place, letting them bypass with everything they use).
Besides that DR10 isnt going to save them at higher levels. No +5 vest of resistance(failing saves a LOT, a lantern archon PC will just die to save or die effects),no +6 stat items(+3 hp/level is huge), so on and so forth. Oh its useful at say, level 5 and below, when most NPCs cant penetrate it, but all you need is a raging, power attacking barbarian or a variant.
Yea they can teleport themselves at will. How is this going to matter if the only way they can survive a combat is to teleport away? Its not like they can actually mass teleport the party into, say, the evil necromancer's lair, bypassing all his traps and guards, then waste him. Its more like "Hey i teleport into the evil necromancer's lair, then get wasted by him and his elite guard".
Aura of menace : Useful, but with no cloak of cha, you are looking at a max of DC 20 remaining more or less static all the way up to and beyond level 20....and the penalties are negated once you strike the lantern archon(not hard, average dex, +4 nat armor, no ability to wear armor or even bracers of armor......).
Seriously try playing like, a level 10 lantern archon......without massive house rules........its not going to work.
Besides that DR10 isnt going to save them at higher levels. No +5 vest of resistance(failing saves a LOT, a lantern archon PC will just die to save or die effects),no +6 stat items(+3 hp/level is huge), so on and so forth. Oh its useful at say, level 5 and below, when most NPCs cant penetrate it, but all you need is a raging, power attacking barbarian or a variant.
Yea they can teleport themselves at will. How is this going to matter if the only way they can survive a combat is to teleport away? Its not like they can actually mass teleport the party into, say, the evil necromancer's lair, bypassing all his traps and guards, then waste him. Its more like "Hey i teleport into the evil necromancer's lair, then get wasted by him and his elite guard".
Aura of menace : Useful, but with no cloak of cha, you are looking at a max of DC 20 remaining more or less static all the way up to and beyond level 20....and the penalties are negated once you strike the lantern archon(not hard, average dex, +4 nat armor, no ability to wear armor or even bracers of armor......).
Seriously try playing like, a level 10 lantern archon......without massive house rules........its not going to work.
javcs said:
Also don't forget the LA will have aid on ALL THE TIME. So that's a 11 temp hitpoints right there (why not max it out if you can cast it at will). With his DR, normally the archon will absorb 21 damage before even being hurt. Also, since the archon can teleport at will, he will never be in danger long, at least at low levels.
And it may seem weird, but you could give the archon some armor. It would be expensive, as you double the cost for weird shaped body armor, but you could create a cloth covering for the archon that could be enchanted (basically bracers of armor).
This is one of those creatures were you have to look at the low level ramifications. Sure, at 20th levell, a 15th X/latern archon 5 is probably going to suck...but unfortunately that happens with level adjustment very frequently. That's why many systems have been created to pay off level adjustments.
But look at 6th level. You have a character that gives your whole party a +1 to attack and temp hitpoints all the time. He has perfect fly and the big one...can teleport at will!! That's a huge benefit that cannot be ignored. His main downside is his lack of hitpoints and AC, but that's made up for a great deal by the fact that he has a lot of DR and temp hitpoints.
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