Law school?

[Old Fezziwig]

I've recently decided to apply to law school or at least to get the ball rolling so I can be prepared to apply over the next couple months (I do realize that I'm a bit behind the curve already). I have been reading up on different schools and types of law, and, while I understand that I'm likely to change my focus as I proceed through law school, I'm currently leaning towards Sports and Entertainment Law to the end of becoming an agent (working towards being a literary agent is also appealing, and I do understand that a JD is not necessary to achieve that, although I'd feel more comfortable having one if I'm negotiating sales and contracts) or aiming at putting myself in a position to work for the US government (it's always been an interest, just not one that I've pursued).

As far as where I've been, I'm just shy of 27, have a Master's Degree in English, and have spent the last 15 months on the job market. Although I am employed at the moment, it's in retail and not a long term career option, and I have been seeking alternate employment over the last year without success (I did have a five-month internship at a local publisher, which was rewarding, but not for me). I will be taking the LSAT on October 1st.

What I'm looking for is general advice and anecdotes on people's experiences applying to and going through law school. Are there things/places I should avoid? Are there things that are absolutely necessary? I've heard that LSAT scores and the undergraduate GPA are critical to my applications' chances of success — is this still true? Basically any advice anyone here can give me would be greatly appreciated. After all, as y'all don't have any strong investment in my future, I feel that your advice will be really helpful or, at least, different than the advice I get from the lawyers and law students I know.

Thanks,
Nick

 

[msd]

Well, 3rd year law school student in Boston, so hopefully most of this will be on point...

First off, getting in.

Basically three things it seems:

1) Your LSAT score - whether you like it or not, most admissions officers will still tell you that it is the best predictor of your first year performance. And your first year in law school is really the only year that means a whole lot.

2) Your undergrad GPA - pretty self-explanatory.

3) Your undergrad institution - again, people can get pretty cranky about this kind of thing, but the simple fact is that you are better off going to a better name school. Whether school A is in fact better than school B is utterly and totally beside the point. If school A is perceived as being better than school B, it is for all intents and purposes better.

Obviously, with respect to the last two, there is a sliding scale. You probably want a 3.3 from Harvard or MIT over a 3.5 from BU or BC. There are no concrete rules in this area, though.

Which school to go to
This might be a point of contention among other responders here, but my advice is this: go to the best school you can do well at. Most people will tell you to go to best school you can get into. That is true if you are talking about Harvard, Stanford, or Yale. If you aint, you want to be at the top of your class someplace else.

Try to think a bit backwards. If you want to be in LA doing entertainment law, you either need to think about going to law school in that area or going to a school with a national reputation. Don't go to Northeastern and then try and figure out why you aren't getting called for interviews in LA.

Getting a job

Again, first off, you have to understand that by and large, first year is the only thing that matters. That is not totally true and there are a number of exceptions, but most of what appears on the bar is taught in first year and most of the job interviews that you go on will be on the basis of your first year grades.

Example.

I was just offered a permanent position as an full-time associate at a large Boston firm for fall 2006 (after I finish law school). I just completed by summer internship there. I interviewed for that internship position this same time last year (2004). At that time, I had completed one year of law school and the firms only had access to my first year grades.

And just to be clear...grades are everything. If you don't like that idea, you should seriously consider a different profession. No one cares if you were on the school paper or were the President of the student council or organized a food drive for the homeless. Its grades...grades...grades.

Now, the above is not entirely true. If you are aiming to interview at some of the smaller firms or looking to do something that is very specific or special interest-based, then yeah...they will take into account more than your grades and more than your first year grades at that. But if what you are looking for is top-salary east coast firms, then its grades and where you went to law school.

Personally, I love law school...I think it is the most mentally challenging exercise I have ever put myself through and I don't regret a single day I was here. Yeah, it's competitive but then the field is generally and attracts those kind of people so if you don't like that element of law school, there seems to be a good bet that you are not gonna like the profession generally.

Anyway, hope that helps!

Feel free to ask any specific questions re: Boston law schools if you want or about anything else that I just blatantly didn't answer.

 

[Voadam]

Law school is super expensive, you will come out with lots of loans. Not all law jobs pay well. Know what you want to come out of law school doing before you go in so you can evaluate whether it is worth the substantial cost to you.

~90% of people really find law school stressful and not fun.

Undergrad GPA does not predict LSAT. LSAT does not predict law school GPA and Ranking. Law school ranking and GPA does not correlate to ease of bar passage. Bar passage does not correlate to skills of practice. They are sequential but different hoops that must be passed to get to the end.

Law school is like undergrad poli sci, but you need to read everything you get assigned instead of just relying upon lectures to inform you

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Personally, I love law school...I think it is the most mentally challenging exercise I have ever put myself through and I don't regret a single day I was here. Yeah, it's competitive but then the field is generally and attracts those kind of people so if you don't like that element of law school, there seems to be a good bet that you are not gonna like the profession generally.

Anyway, hope that helps!

Feel free to ask any specific questions re: Boston law schools if you want or about anything else that I just blatantly didn't answer.

That's really helpful. And it's definitely given me some things to think about. One question I had — I just read Scott Turow's One L about his experiences as a 1L at Harvard Law. At the time, HLS was primarily using the Socratic Method as a teaching model, but there're hints in the book that certain professors and large portions of the student body were pushing for a change in that. I was just wondering if that was still the predominant teaching method, and, if your experience has been different, how do the professors teach their courses?

Law school is super expensive, you will come out with lots of loans. Not all law jobs pay well. Know what you want to come out of law school doing before you go in so you can evaluate whether it is worth the substantial cost to you.

~90% of people really find law school stressful and not fun.

This is one of my primary concerns at the moment, along with making sure that I do well on the LSAT, and could stop me completely in my tracks should I find that I won't be able to pay the loans off after I get out based on what I want to do. I fully expect law school to be stressful, but it's always good to see things like this written out in black and white (or gold and white as it were). Thanks!

Nick

 

[Dingleberry]

~90% of people really find law school stressful and not fun.

If this isn't just anecdotal, please cite your source. This number conflicts dramatically with what I've heard from the people with whom I went to law school and my many friends over the years who got their JDs from a variety of schools.

Nick, I'd respond to your inquiries, but my law school experience is outdated. I can only rmember a handful of people who had laptops at the time, and professors didn't allow them in class.

 

[Voadam]

If this isn't just anecdotal, please cite your source. This number conflicts dramatically with what I've heard from the people with whom I went to law school and my many friends over the years who got their JDs from a variety of schools.

Nick, I'd respond to your inquiries, but my law school experience is outdated. I can only rmember a handful of people who had laptops at the time, and professors didn't allow them in class.

Anecdotal but based on talking with my friends and classmates from law school. Less than one in ten enjoyed law school as a whole as opposed to feeling it was a difficult thing to get through even when entered and approached with a good attitude. There were a lot of people who found it a tough experience, and a bunch who were miserable while going through it.

 

[Dingleberry]

Anecdotal but based on talking with my friends and classmates from law school. Less than one in ten enjoyed law school as a whole as opposed to feeling it was a difficult thing to get through even when entered and approached with a good attitude. There were a lot of people who found it a tough experience, and a bunch who were miserable while going through it.

I'd definitely agree that most (if not all) find law school to be competitive, difficult and stressful, but at least half of the lawyers would still say it was enjoyable - especially when compared to the actual practice of law. In my experience, law school tends to attract those who like a challenge. Many of my classmates who didn't like that aspect of it got out of the profession after a few years.

 

[Storm Raven]

Law school is super expensive, you will come out with lots of loans. Not all law jobs pay well. Know what you want to come out of law school doing before you go in so you can evaluate whether it is worth the substantial cost to you.

It is super-expensive if you go to a private law school. Many state run law schools are quite good (like, for instance, the University of Virginia) and state tuition tends to be a lot less.

~90% of people really find law school stressful and not fun.

I have found that most lawyers liked law school, but are less enthusiastic about the practice of law. But then again, many of those people also choose their jobs based solely on how much money it offers.

 

[msd]

That's really helpful. And it's definitely given me some things to think about. One question I had — I just read Scott Turow's One L about his experiences as a 1L at Harvard Law. At the time, HLS was primarily using the Socratic Method as a teaching model, but there're hints in the book that certain professors and large portions of the student body were pushing for a change in that. I was just wondering if that was still the predominant teaching method, and, if your experience has been different, how do the professors teach their courses?

I think the answer is likely to be very school-dependent. Where I attend law school, the Socratic method is used in all first year courses but is pretty much exclusively used in first year.

Personally, I didn't mind the socratic method. Some people find it intimidating to get up and speak in front of their classmates (probably around 90 people) but again, that just wasn't me. Personally, I find that I learned a lot more by being forced to essentially learn the law yourself (a la the Socratic method) than to have it spoon-fed to you in a lecture.

Obviously, YMMV.

I fully expect law school to be stressful, but it's always good to see things like this written out in black and white (or gold and white as it were). Thanks!

There is always a certain amount of stress. Again, being successful in law school really comes down to getting good grades, which always produces a little amount of stress. But you learn to manage that stress and hopefully get to a point where you are happy and enjoy school.

I should confess that I am probably not your typical law student. I matriculated to school as a first year at age 32. I had already had financial success as a consultant in a previous career. I knew I could pay for law school. I knew what working in a large company with a lot of heirarchy and a lot of politics is like and I knew how to balance my work with my personal life.

Again, YMMV. Hope that helps...

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Personally, I didn't mind the socratic method. Some people find it intimidating to get up and speak in front of their classmates (probably around 90 people) but again, that just wasn't me. Personally, I find that I learned a lot more by being forced to essentially learn the law yourself (a la the Socratic method) than to have it spoon-fed to you in a lecture.

That is the obvious advantage, I think, to the Socratic Method.

There is always a certain amount of stress. Again, being successful in law school really comes down to getting good grades, which always produces a little amount of stress. But you learn to manage that stress and hopefully get to a point where you are happy and enjoy school.

A side question, but I've not been able to really get a good, solid answer to this — how much time a day would you say you spent working in your first year? I've heard just about everything from 8 all the way up and through 12. Did you have any techniques that helped you balance out your studies and your personal life?

Nick