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Layout Software

JoeGKushner

First Post
Fortunately for Adobe, they had not only PageMaker, but InDesign.

Yeah, that's kinda my point. They had PageMaker for many a moon and generation and it took InDesign, oh, say what, two versions before it destroyed the old Pagemaker and ganked the best of Quark and was easier to use and easier to integrate?
 

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Mercutio01

First Post
I've just recently become interested in DTP software and if you're on a budget or simply don't want to spend $700 on InDesign I'd suggest checking out Scribus which is an open-source, free DTP program. It's probably not nearly as polished as InDesign or Quark there is the advantage of cost along with a decent tutorial.

At least in the small presses I personally know, they all seem to have InDesign.

That said, I'll second the look at Scribus. At worst, you download it and learn the basic ideas behind how DTP software functions before you decide to put down a significant monetary outlay. I'd similarly recommend GIMP before purchasing Photoshop. Scribus really isn't that hard to use, and the design tutorials are at least conceptually cross platform if not directly, again like PS to GIMP.

It also has the benefit of being Open Source, if the philosophical basis of that makes any difference to you.

Caveat - in high school I worked on yearbook (more than a decade ago now), but we used PageMaker, so I had at least passing knowledge of layouts from that, which probably made using Scribus easier than if I hadn't had a clue.
 

lmpjr007

Explorer
I have been doing graphic design for 15 years and I have used Pagemaker (back when it was owned Aldus), QUark and InDesign. The Adobe CS suite is the best DTP I have seen on the market so far, but it does have a learn curving to it. In addition to just getting the software you might want to pick up [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Non-Designers-Design-Book-Typographic-Principles/dp/1566091594"]The Non-Designers Design Book by Robin Williams[/ame]. It is VERY HELPFUL on understanding why thing should look they way they do graphicly. Graphic Design is a skill that can be taught, but only if you want to learn it. Good luck.

"Just because you bought a hammer, it doesn't make you a master carpenter."
 

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
Do you really have to do page layout or is your focus on type-setting?

For handling large documents reliably and securely, with working mechanisms for cross-references, indexes and table of contents, Adobe's Framemaker is still king.

Granted, doing fancy page layout is not its forte - at least if you're a beginner. Framemaker is the perfect working horse. Other animals are fast like racing hroses or can do fancy tricks like circus animals, but your trusted working horse gets the job done.
 

ProfessorPain

First Post
Do you really have to do page layout or is your focus on type-setting?

For handling large documents reliably and securely, with working mechanisms for cross-references, indexes and table of contents, Adobe's Framemaker is still king.

Granted, doing fancy page layout is not its forte - at least if you're a beginner. Framemaker is the perfect working horse. Other animals are fast like racing hroses or can do fancy tricks like circus animals, but your trusted working horse gets the job done.

I hadn't thought about this. I am still in the research phase and buisness plan building phase. So I want to stay flexible. I had thought, all I needed was layout software. I want software that will give me something I can hand to the printer and say, okay I want 1000 of these. Maybe there is more to the process than I thought. Are you saying with something like INdesign, I would not be able to make an index and TOC effectively?
 

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
I hadn't thought about this. I am still in the research phase and buisness plan building phase. So I want to stay flexible. I had thought, all I needed was layout software. I want software that will give me something I can hand to the printer and say, okay I want 1000 of these. Maybe there is more to the process than I thought. Are you saying with something like INdesign, I would not be able to make an index and TOC effectively?

No, I wouldn't say that. Actually I couldn't say it because I've never worked with InDesign. Page-layout tools like InDesign have a different focus than Framemaker. They concentrate on the visuals while Frame concentrates on the contents. Want to make produce a 300-pages-book with lots of generated lists and cross-referencing? Want to be able to make last minute changes without having to worry about references going wrong or the layout being messed-up? Want your text set using excellent typography, making it easy to read, without learning typography in the first place? Use Framemaker. (or LaTeX :) )

As I said in my previous post, you should consider what kind of work you want to perform.
 

Marius Delphus

Adventurer
Well, I just completed a 708-page project in InDesign, about which you may have heard, and it went quite smoothly if I do say so myself. :) The final product occupies 24 separate InDesign files, but even so making a book-wide TOC *and* a TOC for a single chapter was simplicity itself (understanding and properly using Paragraph Styles is absolutely essential). InDesign does handle cross-referencing [EDIT: well, bookmarks, which probably doesn't amount to the same thing now that I think of it... actual cross-referencing can be handled with a plugin though, or the free version would be to do it manually with hyperlinks and a script] and indexing, but I've never used those features really (indeed, I almost fell victim to the dreaded "page xx", but this was my fault, not InDesign's).

InDesign's built-in defaults handle typography just fine. I know a thing or two about typography myself, but I don't need to: the "set and forget" method in InDesign produces very attractive results with most fonts (especially with Adobe OpenType Pro fonts, some of which come bundled with it), IMO.

Another bonus of InDesign is that, if you spring for the Creative Suite, it comes bundled with Photoshop, Illustrator, and Acrobat Pro for not *much* more than buying InDesign alone. All three were invaluable during production of WOTBS.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that WOTC uses InDesign as well, FWIW.

Any modern layout software will give you a print-ready PDF (the format you will in all likelihood be handing off to your printer); you just need to decide what features are most important. Personally, I find that InDesign meets all my page layout needs.

EDIT: Here is Adobe's very own feature-comparison page:
http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/framemaker/comparison.html

FURTHER EDIT: I'll put it this way, though: I wouldn't want to author content in InDesign. The way I look at it (note that this is from somebody who's only toyed briefly with FrameMaker) FrameMaker is (among other things) the word processor Microsoft Word dreams of someday becoming: full of design and technical features that Word either can't touch, or tries but fails miserably to touch. InDesign, on the other hand, is the page layout software Microsoft Publisher dreams of someday becoming.

For WOTBS, all the text content was developed in Microsoft Word. You could do your writing in InDesign if you really wanted to, but it's more of a struggle (the "word processor" feature isn't WYSIWYG, for starters). But when I received a Word file, I always doctored it *in Word* until it was ready to be placed (Paragraph Styles, remember) because of InDesign's... quirks.

FURTHER FURTHER EDIT: You'll want to check out Scribus, as mentioned, as the price can't be beat. Other utilities with a lower price point than either FrameMaker or InDesign that get generally favorable reviews are Serif PagePlus X3 Publisher Professional and Microsoft Publisher.

I suggest getting your hands on Scribus and trial copies of each of the other programs, and then spending one or two days with each attempting basic layout tasks and just generally exploring your options (copying or redesigning pages you have access to is, as has been mentioned in another context, one good exercise). Page layout software works on a different paradigm from word processing software, so if you've never attempted anything like it before, there is a learning curve to page layout which can't really be shortcut... then you have to get into the different ways each program handles your needs.

If you haven't ventured into page design before, you might also want to read up on a few things... one good starting point is this:
http://desktoppub.about.com/od/desktoppublishing/u/Tasks_and_Techniques.htm

Anyhow, this is becoming a huge post, so I will close by saying good luck and I hope you find the solution that fits your budget and needs. :)
 
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PatrickLawinger

First Post

Two things;
First, this is not a "good" tutorial, it is absolutely fantastic and a must-read. I downloaded it based on a suggestion from a different message board (might have been by the same person ;)). I found it more helpful that several "bibles" people attest to. Just my personal opinion.

Second, I use Indesign but I use the CS3 suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.) because I was able to get it MUCH cheaper when CS4 came out. Honestly, I don't see how an even older version such as CS2 can't do everything you'd want.

I am a neophyte when it comes to layout. I have read a few books and several online articles (including the above, which I think is HUGELY valuable) that were mostly about design concepts rather than the software itself. I have found InDesign easy to use. I admit that I haven't tried any other major software packages. I won't say it has a small learning curve, but there are many help tutorials available online if you have problems.

I do have to say that if you can find an opensource software package that works for you and that you are comfortable with, go for it.

I am very much of the philosophy of simply trying things and learning while doing. It can get frustrating, but I am one of those people that takes pleasure in learning new things just for the sake of learning.

Good luck,
Patrick
 

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