Lazy DMs doing stupid things
- Thread starter Bat
- Start date
Nonlethal Force
First Post
Yeah, I have to agree witht he strong majority of posters here. The DM bit off more than he could chew.
I don't mean that they players are bad, nor that the DM is bad. But an inexperienced DM is often looked upon like throwing a medium rare steak to a pack of coyotes who haven't eaten for a week. [Not by all groups, but there are players out there...]
But, what I see going on here is that there is a player (the OP) who genuinely likes the game but doesn't like DMing. He has a friend that the same probably is true for. There is a third guy with much less experience who doesn't mind putting in the extra time and generating a storyworld to play in.
Assuming that is a fair assessment, I always put the honus of a fair game on those with the most experience. It isn't right to expect the least experienced guy to always know what is fair. They might occasionally have decent foresight ... but not as much as a more experienced person.
What I find really shady about this whole deal is that the friend admits it is a broken PrC and then chooses that one when an official ruling isn't given. That right there tells me that the mentality of the player isn't about going out and having a fun (yet fair) game. The player wants to powergame with all the bells and whistles.
Now, powergaming with bells and whistles can ocasionally be fun, too - but only if the DM can powergame right back with an equal amount of creativity and foresight. But if the DM is wasting all his time just keeping up with what the players are trying to pull, that demonstrates that the players are playing way out of the DMs league. And I put the honus on the players to reign it back in.
The self-admission by the OP about the only way to contain the player is through a cube of force (which was later shown incorrect anyway because the wall of force has to be vertical) demonstrates that the players are fully aware of their power ... yet the DM may not be. The assistance offered on the player's behalf to illustrate a few weaknesses is the right kind of conversation to be having, so kudos to the players on that point. But ultimately it is up to the players to know when to lay it all out and when to reign it back in ... because they have the vast gaming experience.
The fact that the DM feels out of his (or her) league is what is causing the rash cutbacks in power. Had the players unpacked their power slowly, allowing the DM to understand their power slowly and in manageable chunks ... I doubt this would have happened. Or at least I doubt the cutbacks would have been as severe. [Although I agree ... unlimited shifting at 14th level? :\ ]
So, players - go apologize to your DM for taking advantage of him. And play responsibly. You don't want to DM - so don't ruin it for the one DM opportunity you have. Players can make DMs hate DMing just as much as DMs can ruin games and make players hate playing. If you like playing so much, I'd think you would want to treasure the apparently rare gift this DM is - in that they actually are willing to run a game!
I don't mean that they players are bad, nor that the DM is bad. But an inexperienced DM is often looked upon like throwing a medium rare steak to a pack of coyotes who haven't eaten for a week. [Not by all groups, but there are players out there...]
But, what I see going on here is that there is a player (the OP) who genuinely likes the game but doesn't like DMing. He has a friend that the same probably is true for. There is a third guy with much less experience who doesn't mind putting in the extra time and generating a storyworld to play in.
Assuming that is a fair assessment, I always put the honus of a fair game on those with the most experience. It isn't right to expect the least experienced guy to always know what is fair. They might occasionally have decent foresight ... but not as much as a more experienced person.
What I find really shady about this whole deal is that the friend admits it is a broken PrC and then chooses that one when an official ruling isn't given. That right there tells me that the mentality of the player isn't about going out and having a fun (yet fair) game. The player wants to powergame with all the bells and whistles.
Now, powergaming with bells and whistles can ocasionally be fun, too - but only if the DM can powergame right back with an equal amount of creativity and foresight. But if the DM is wasting all his time just keeping up with what the players are trying to pull, that demonstrates that the players are playing way out of the DMs league. And I put the honus on the players to reign it back in.
The self-admission by the OP about the only way to contain the player is through a cube of force (which was later shown incorrect anyway because the wall of force has to be vertical) demonstrates that the players are fully aware of their power ... yet the DM may not be. The assistance offered on the player's behalf to illustrate a few weaknesses is the right kind of conversation to be having, so kudos to the players on that point. But ultimately it is up to the players to know when to lay it all out and when to reign it back in ... because they have the vast gaming experience.
The fact that the DM feels out of his (or her) league is what is causing the rash cutbacks in power. Had the players unpacked their power slowly, allowing the DM to understand their power slowly and in manageable chunks ... I doubt this would have happened. Or at least I doubt the cutbacks would have been as severe. [Although I agree ... unlimited shifting at 14th level? :\ ]
So, players - go apologize to your DM for taking advantage of him. And play responsibly. You don't want to DM - so don't ruin it for the one DM opportunity you have. Players can make DMs hate DMing just as much as DMs can ruin games and make players hate playing. If you like playing so much, I'd think you would want to treasure the apparently rare gift this DM is - in that they actually are willing to run a game!
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
Nonlethal Force said:
Yep.
Basically, take a deep breath, and talk to the DM. We all know it sucks to have something and then have it taken away. The answer is to make sure that the feat, class, whatever isn't something that the DM's going to feel is broken. So, talk with him. If necessary, make time; have lunch together and talk it over. (This is, of course, a chance to bribe the DM! ;-))
So, talk with him, and make sure of any changes he'll make to those higher-level warmage spells. Meet him halfway, and you shouldn't have any problems. After all, you're all there to have fun.
Brad
azhrei_fje
First Post
I'm disappointed. While I think KarinsDad may've gone over the top just a tad in post #14 and #23, I've seen much worse from other posters with nary a word from the moderators.Pielorinho said:
I want KarinsDad to know that I view his posts as being "borderline".
And in order to contribute to the actual topic, I would have to suggest that Bat try talking to the DM. Explain how you feel, and how the other player feels (is there more than one other player? How do they see the situation?), and talk it out like adults. This will be tough, if you are all friends, but you need to do it. Having a heart-to-heart will actually breed respect among the members of the gaming group, although some may get their feathers ruffled in the short-term.
Persevere, Bat.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Things like this are why my answer to a prestige class, whether by WotC or third party, is by default 'no, not until I have looked at it thoroughly and decided if it fits the campaign. And the answer will likely remain no.'
Even if it is not broken, and the one described certainly sounds broken to me, not every PrC fits every campaign world.
If a player threatened to quit over it I would say 'goodbye, the decision has been made for you. Don't bother coming back to the game.' (And yes, I have said that.)
The Auld Grump
Even if it is not broken, and the one described certainly sounds broken to me, not every PrC fits every campaign world.
If a player threatened to quit over it I would say 'goodbye, the decision has been made for you. Don't bother coming back to the game.' (And yes, I have said that.)
The Auld Grump
Drowbane
First Post
Back in 2e, my group had several different DMs. Everybody had one or two main characters that they could play in any of these DM's games. We were in Highschool, and cared more about just having fun than story continuity. So if one DM wanted to run something for lvl 5, but nobody had been to lvl 5 yet... so be it... his game is part of the character's future and we do it. Oddly enough this made for a wicked cool storyline... tracing it is like following a wind-blown spiderweb... its all over the place.
Anyways.
One of the :coughA-holecough: DMs decided he didn't like my character using a Katana. Everybody else was cool with it. But he hated the fact that it did 2d6 to everythign and had a spiffy speed factor on top of that. So in the middle of one fight... he had it detonate by an invisable Psionicist... one we never heard from again.. .much less found. So yeah, the other DMs just had waved it as "Oh, that whacky Scott..." and the event was ignored.
He didn't DM very much... as nobody really wanted to play in his sessions.
Oh, and in Shadowrun... this guy sent ghosts after the party sniper because he didn't regret the kills he made on the job... what a tool.
Anyways.
One of the :coughA-holecough: DMs decided he didn't like my character using a Katana. Everybody else was cool with it. But he hated the fact that it did 2d6 to everythign and had a spiffy speed factor on top of that. So in the middle of one fight... he had it detonate by an invisable Psionicist... one we never heard from again.. .much less found. So yeah, the other DMs just had waved it as "Oh, that whacky Scott..." and the event was ignored.
He didn't DM very much... as nobody really wanted to play in his sessions.
Oh, and in Shadowrun... this guy sent ghosts after the party sniper because he didn't regret the kills he made on the job... what a tool.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
The DM's only real sin is that he was rather undiplomatic in bringing down a ruling -- a ruling that was entirely legitimate. I wish he had handled it differently, but honestly I would not presume to say I would have done any better.
I consider it a favor if the DM allows a PrC in the campaign. I do not have a problem with retroactively rewriting and retweaking PCs. The DM brings in new feats and new classes to the the game -- really a gift to the players from my POV -- and we get to tweak. If the DM feels he made a mistake and needs to change something, I might want to talk about, I might even whine a bit, but ultimately I want the DM to feel comfortablewith the materials we are using to build our PCs.
I consider it a favor if the DM allows a PrC in the campaign. I do not have a problem with retroactively rewriting and retweaking PCs. The DM brings in new feats and new classes to the the game -- really a gift to the players from my POV -- and we get to tweak. If the DM feels he made a mistake and needs to change something, I might want to talk about, I might even whine a bit, but ultimately I want the DM to feel comfortablewith the materials we are using to build our PCs.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
If you'd like more explanation for the rationale behind this, please open a thread in the Meta forum--or, better yet, search for threads there on this topic. Briefly, each post has an exclamation point button in the lower-left-hand corner; clicking on it reports the post to us. If one post is way over the top horrible and doesn't get reported, and another post is just your average against the rules but does get reported, we're much likelier to respond to the second post than to the first.azhrei_fje said:
Daniel
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
As a poster, not as a moderator:
Bat, I do agree that this sounds more like a communication problem than like anything else. Our group is tweaking the rules all the time in order to allow everyone--all the players and the DM--to get as much fun out of the system as we can. If I were you, I'd really try to see it from the DM's perspective, maybe take him out for coffee and talk with him about it until you can understand what frustrations he's experiencing in the game as well.
Good luck!
Daniel
Bat, I do agree that this sounds more like a communication problem than like anything else. Our group is tweaking the rules all the time in order to allow everyone--all the players and the DM--to get as much fun out of the system as we can. If I were you, I'd really try to see it from the DM's perspective, maybe take him out for coffee and talk with him about it until you can understand what frustrations he's experiencing in the game as well.
Good luck!
Daniel
I have to agree with the posters that think your DM bit off more than he could chew. If he's a new DM, he has no business running a game at 14th level and randomly disallowing abilities simply because he doesn't understand how they interact with the rest of the game. I'd talk to him and ask to start over at 1st level so that he can learn the game with the rest of you. It's certainly less likely to cause problems.
Players have some responsibility to work within the guidelines a DM sets for the game, just as the DM has some responsibility to be reasonable, consistent and fair with those guidelines. Changing something in the middle of the game without *some* reason is just plain bad DM'ing.
Players have some responsibility to work within the guidelines a DM sets for the game, just as the DM has some responsibility to be reasonable, consistent and fair with those guidelines. Changing something in the middle of the game without *some* reason is just plain bad DM'ing.
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