Lazy DMs doing stupid things

[Bat]

Then don't play with that GM.

This isn't rocket science.

As I said, I have considered quitting. However, as I also said, I do want to avoid having bad mojo between us; we live next door to each other and have been good friends up to this point. As also stated, I cannot find another game in the area to play on; my school isnt big on role-playing. Despite the fact that I do prefer playing to running, I simply do not have the time to run a game this semester, nor next nor the one after that. I will be taking the maximum amount of credit hours for the next 3 semesters to graduate, and I do not have time to run a game. I joined his game as a way to blow off steam and to change the pace from watching Star Trek and playing video games every weekend to relax. I am loathe to give it up, as I do really enjoy D&D. Hence why I came here and asked for any advice anyone might have on ways to deal with this; how I might approach one of my friends about this, or something along those lines.

 

[wuyanei]

The DM has every right to nerf a 4th party PrC, that probably has never even been seriously playtested.

This is a classic case of 'Easy to not give; pure hell to take away.' Your DM has been lenient with you -- I would just have said 'No and hell no.' to that PrC in the first place.

Shapechange at will at 14th level!? let's be serious here....

 

[KarinsDad]

When I posted this I did not expect to be flamed; I also did not construe this as whining. I was merely explaining the situation and how I felt about it. If it came across that way, you missed my point entirely. As I said, I am honestly trying to find a way to fix this trust problem I have with the DM. I came here looking for advice, not expecting to be attacked for simply asking advice from more experianced players. If you cannot add something useful to the discussion, and wish only to attack me, please refrain.

The problem with the advice you are seeking is that if someone disagrees with your analysis of the situation and gives you advice you do not like, you call it flaming.

Just like if the DM makes a ruling you do not like, he is "doing stupid things".

If you want to fix the trust problem, it is simple: Trust your DM. Period.

Instead, you came here whining about it. The problem is not with the DM or his ruling, it is with your belief that you are right and he is wrong and anyone who disagrees with that is wrong too.


Look at your title:

Lazy DMs doing stupid things


I assume you meant "Lazy DM's doing stupid things", but if so, you were lazy in writing it. If not, you accused DMs in general of being lazy and doing stupid things.


You then accuse the DM of being too lazy to fix something in his campaign. You then state that he immediately after one session fixed something in his campaign by limiting it, but you didn't like it.

Huh? When he did fix something, you complained about it.


You then state that you are willing to quit over it. This has whine written all over it.


You then state "I don't see how he can justifiably make sure a sweeping rules change after we have already started the campagin.".

It's only one session after your new campaign started. Of COURSE a DM might find out that a given ability in the game is broken that quickly and of COURSE he is justified in changing it before it gets out of hand and before the ability is used for many sessions.

Not only that, but you complain that he is too lazy and then turn around and complain when he does something immediately to fix a problem.


Or how about when you posted "At that time, my best friend went to the DM and said: "I want to play the 3.0 Shifter PRC, but it is very powerful; if you want, I will play this fan-created PRC that is less powerful. Here are both PRCs; look them over and let me know which one you want me to play before the first session." The DM never got back to him, so he played the 3.0 PRC. The DM did not like it, because it was powerful, but couldn't do much about it."

Your friend TOLD the DM to pick which one he could play and then the DM couldn't do much about it???

As IcyCool said "When did players start getting this feeling of entitlement?"


Your problem is that people here do not agree with you, just like your DM does not agree with you and you don't like it. So, you call your DM stupid. You say that the people here are attacking you.

Suck it up Dude. Have fun with your game as opposed to considering it a contest between you and the DM.

As I said, I have considered quitting. However, as I also said, I do want to avoid having bad mojo between us; we live next door to each other and have been good friends up to this point. As also stated, I cannot find another game in the area to play on; my school isnt big on role-playing. Despite the fact that I do prefer playing to running, I simply do not have the time to run a game this semester, nor next nor the one after that. I will be taking the maximum amount of credit hours for the next 3 semesters to graduate, and I do not have time to run a game. I joined his game as a way to blow off steam and to change the pace from watching Star Trek and playing video games every weekend to relax. I am loathe to give it up, as I do really enjoy D&D. Hence why I came here and asked for any advice anyone might have on ways to deal with this; how I might approach one of my friends about this, or something along those lines.

Like wuyanei said "Shapechange at will at 14th level!? let's be serious here...."

For someone asking for advice, you sure are not listening.

Stop whining about quitting. Stop whining about a good decision to limit an ability that should never be in the game in the first place. In fact, he did not nerf it enough.

Start having fun with your game. Forget about this DM decision. It was the correct decision, not a stupid one. That is the flaw in your thinking. Your DM made a good decision and you are the one having a problem with it. It is unfortunate that the DM allowed such a PrC in the campaign in the first place, but you should be praising the DM for coming up with a fair ruling that limits the idiocy while at the same time allows your friend to still do most of what he was able to do previously. You shouldn't be calling your DM stupid for doing the right thing.


Your friend can still change into a Stone Golem 10 times per day. Very few other 14th level characters can do that.

 

[Stalker0]

Let's keep in mind we are not talking about a common feat or prc, we are talking about an untested custom prc.

A few weeks ago in my game I had to nerf an ability of a made up class. My player complained about it of course, I explained my point of view, and we got on with life. I'm sure he wishes he could have it the old way, but we are still having fun.

 

[Lord Wyrm]

My strategy for "super abilities" and they strategy of my table top DMs has been to go a hunting with some big scary monster. Its a fun diversion and the player tends to get the point of "ease off such and such" and if not they'll have some more fun in a few levels. Take something like this up to your DM. At fourteenth level against those abilities I'd probably send a few 13th-15th level mages after the party for a real knockdown drag out.

 

[wuyanei]

Honestly, from what little you have told us, your DM seems to be a very nice person -- perhaps even a little bit soft-hearted. Trust me Bat, if a DM decides to nerf death spells, it is NOT because he thinks they will be too powerful in the hands of the PC characters!

Quite the contrary, I assure you.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

See, I'm, personally, glad that the GM in this case didn't decide to "fix" things "in game" by trying to kill the PCs to show them "who's boss" or that they should lay off this or that power. That just leads to more Us vs. Him thinking.

What I'm seeing is an escalation of bad decisions on the Not Original Poster Player End. The guy comes to the table and says: "I want to do THIS, but it was totally broken last edition and even though I know that, and I know we've changed editions, I'd like to play it. There's a version of this class for the new edition that was changed to take into account how abusive it was last edition, but what I REALLY want is the broken one from last edition ... so I don't want the new one. As a 'compromise' I'm willing to play this OTHER 4th-Party class that people say is less broken but is STILL BROKEN ENOUGH. But only if you tell me I HAVE to play it, because I'd really like the one that was admittedly broken."

Then, because the GM doesn't get back to him, he chooses ... the admittedly broken class that isn't even from the edition of the game you're playing.

What this says to me is that this player wants to get away with as much as he possibly can. There's the Forbidden Apple on the tree in the room, and there's the Not Forbidden Pear on the table, and he managed to find Forbidden Apple Pie ... what he wants, though ... is that forbidden fruit. And unless somebody is standing there saying "Thou Shalt Not Eat The Fruit!" he's going to go ahead and eat the friggin' fruit. And when he gets chastised for eating the forbidden fruit ... he's going to eat the Forbidden Apple Pie. If he were being adult about it and just wanted a piece of fruit, y'know what? He'd have eaten the PEAR.

How this compares to a class from Complete Arcane and the Player's Hand Book, I really don't know. The connection is far away. To "lose trust" here, you'd have to be sort of looking for it.

On one hand we have a class NOT EVEN FROM THIS EDITION OF THE GAME ... and a 4th-Hand Fan Class ... and a guy specifically SPURNING the new edition of the class. Basically, he doesn't want to play by the rules. He wants his own rules.

On the other hand we've got a new-edition WotC product and stuff from THE CORE BOOK.

Apples and Pears.

I dunno. If I were to give honest, heartfelt advice? I'd say quit. Tell your friend to quit. Tell your suite-mate to quit. If you guys are going to build up bad blood about a game, then you should let the game go and return to Star Trek reruns.

The GM in this case needs some serious GM Boot Camp. Not because he's making decisions in-process, but because he needs to learn his own limits. He needs to start the game in lower levels, maybe 3rd-4th and let it grow from there so he can be more comfortable with things. He needs to play things out the core rules before he changes them. And he needs to keep the players USING the core rules, AS WRITTEN and updated to the edition he is playing in. Once he's comfortable with that, THEN let in the WotC splatbooks. Starting off with 14th level characters and even entertaining the idea of a guy bringing in a fan-built PrC is just really asking to have in-game problems. And they spill out of game sometimes.

--fje

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

DMs Will Be DMs...

My favorite DM engages in similar activities from time to time. It becomes especially irritating when he decides that abilities and items which he himself has created and introduced to our characters are deemed too powerful and/or undesirable in a given situation, giving the PCs distinct advantages through inadvertent or opportunistic exploits of the vulnerabilities inherent to the opponents he subsequently decides to introduce. Almost without fail, whenever such an exploit becomes evident, he arbitrarily rules that the spell or item spontaneously ceases to function the way it has unfailingly functioned hitherto--often at the expense of a critical combat round to one of the PCs. Failing this, he preemptively precludes any clever play by somehow--temporarily or permanently--depriving the PC of the item or spell in question at some point prior to its evident utility. In the case of our most powerful party, this often involves a complete or nearly complete deprivation of all spellcasting ability, the distortion of certain spells and effects to render them unusable, and the arbitrary assignment of the Greater Dispelling and Mordankeinen's Dysjunction spells or spell-like abilities to virtually every foe.

For example, I have a Wizard with sufficient levels (46), epic feats (multiple instances of Improved Spell Capacity and Improved Metamagic), and Intelligence (71)--all granted and approved by the DM--to augment the Time Stop spell with the Persistent Spell metamagic feat. In one encounter, it became apparent that--barring some miracle--our party was going to be obliterated. I cast a Persistent Time Stop, hoping to be able to muster the resources during my 24-hour respite to compete with an otherwise unstoppable opponent. Of course, I had never tried this trick before, and I agree that it is somewhat abusive, but had recently come to the conclusion--after discussing it with my DM--that there was no reason why it shouldn't work. As it turned out, it worked exactly as planned, but for some undisclosed reason, it marked me as a target for some type of ridiculously powerful extra-temporal being, which immediately manifested and pursued me--I fled back into the "haven" of time to resume the original encounter.

Also, for some strange reason, I am having a great deal of trouble finding the time to research many of the epic spells I have devised. This is almost certainly because--as a result of the DM's conscious decision to grant me an Intelligence score of over 70--I have a Spellcraft bonus of roughly 91, and I carefully design all of my epic spells to require a Spellcraft check of exactly 92. Through a liberal application of backlash damage and other drawbacks, some of the spells I can design become completely ridiculous.

As a 46th-level vampire, my character should have little trouble recruiting some high level NPC spellcasters to assist him in casting ritual spells; however, our party never seems to be able to reach any sembleance of civilization wherein might be found any potential candidates. As it stands, I am generally limited to 1st-9th level, run-of-the-mill Wizard spells. Unfortunately, none of the offensive spells ever seem to do anything to my opponents, buff spells get dispelled on a round-by-round basis, and I begin every session naked in the middle of a different desert from the last, usually stripped of my spellcasting ability altogether.

Somehow, despite my DM's best efforts, we still generally manage to have fun. The reason for this is that his talent mostly lies in the storytelling, and have revelled in the vivid scenarios he has presented for the last 15 years.

 

[Coredump]

Instead of reading my post.... go back and re-read Karins Dad's post,and Heap's post..


Well Said both of you.



The DM was *nice* in allowing another class.
The player was *not nice* in knowingly playing a broken class
The DM was *nice* in trying to work with the class
The DM was *nice* in trying to work with the class some more.
The Player was *not nice* by coming here and complaining about he DM when the DM was doing his *job*.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

I am playing a Warmage, a PRC from Compelte Arcane. The Warmage gets new spells that are in CA, in additon to spells in the PH. However, the spells I am looking forward to using are not in that book; they are in the PH, and, if I was playing a sorcerer instead, I would be using them. Examples include Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting, Prismatic Wall and Weird. I would understand if he took away spells from CA, like the Orb spells. He has already changed death spells like Finger of Death and Weird; instead of causing instant death, like the description says, they now do 20 d6 + 1d6 for every caster level above 10th. I have no problem with that; he stated that he thought instant death spells were too powerful and this was his fix. I was like: "Dang, I like instant death spells, but OK, I can see why you would do that, you won't get an argument from me about me." On to my answer to your question: I think that most people would agree that the things in the 3.5 PH are fairly well-balanced. I know some won't agree to that, but I believe most will. I think that if I want to use spells from the PH, that are on my class spell list, I should have a right to use those spells. As I stated earlier, I would be understanding if he chose to remove new spells from CA, even if I didn't like it. However, given the fact that he has now said: "I don't like that so I am summarily changing it", I fear he might do the same to my character, and prevent me from using some of the spells that every arcane caster looks forward to using.

Warmage isn't a PRC, actually--it's a 20-level class. It is rather disgusting, though, IMO, especially with the sudden metamagic feats. I mean, how many times a day does a 5th-level character really need to cast a 30-point (plus his or her Int modifier) Fireball? By 5th-level, that could be a Maximized, Empowered Fireball, too... That's just not right...

DM: "You see five Ogres..."

WM: "Maximized, Empowered Fireball!! Reflex 18 or take 49!!"

DM: "...collapse in a smoldering heap."

Even Maximized Burning Hands + Int at 1st level is a bit above the curve, I think.