Lazy DMs doing stupid things

LostSoul said:
Edit: I see this as an example of why Rule 0 sucks. Some DMs read Rule 0 to mean, "I'm the DM, I can break the social contract."
And those DMs read Rule 0 incorrectly. (Rule 0 exists only in 3.0, btw.) This DM did not read Rule 0, perhaps because it is not 3.0. Many people here do not seem to understand it either. As others mention, the real problem here is that the DM is woefully inexperienced trying to handle a group that is way more powerful than he is capable of handling. Since the players have more experience, much of the responsibility for the game lies in their hands and thus, Bat, your friend, is the one largerly responsible for this mess. I put only about 30% of the blame on the DM.

KarinsDad said:
The problem with the advice you are seeking is that if someone disagrees with your analysis of the situation and gives you advice you do not like, you call it flaming.
Or maybe it could have been your comments such as "Do you want some cheese with that whine?" or "Suck it up." or "Why are you getting your panties in a bind over it?" While the gist of your posts have merit, such superfluous remarks can only be read as inflammatory.
 

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The part about this discussion that I would like to add to is the "social contract".

Yes, as a player you do have some right or say in the story. You also DEFINATELY deserve a say in your chacter creation and the rules pertaining to your character.

Your GM, though, also has the exact same rights. If your friends character is ruining his game and making it extremely difficult for him to design encounters and challenges, then you are effectively saying to him...

"Dude, thanks for devoting hours and hours a week towards our gaming fun, but I was wondering if you could devote twice that much so that our characters can be exactly how we want them."

It is a HECK of a lot easier for you, as players, to tweak a character class to help out the GM than it is for the GM to do all the work himself. How about devoting the complaining time to instead actually TALKING to the GM, finding out what exactly is ruining his good time, and then plugging the holes necessary.

Playing is a vacation you love. GMing is work that you love.

DS
 

Infiniti2000 said:
Or maybe it could have been your comments such as "Do you want some cheese with that whine?" or "Suck it up." or "Why are you getting your panties in a bind over it?" While the gist of your posts have merit, such superfluous remarks can only be read as inflammatory.

Sure they can. You are correct.

They were meant to get his attention.

Just like when I talk to the girls on my daughter's soccer team (where I am coach).

Mostly, you try to be encouraging.

But when one of the kids whines, you tell them to take a lap.

As a society, we have so many whiny people hanging around anymore. It's practically becoming an epidemic. Plus, these people think they are entitled to often (or even always) get things their way. :eek:

Coming here (or actually the General RPG Discussion board would have been better) was a good idea. His approach (stating that his DM is doing stupid things) when the DM actually was doing the right thing, although late, was not a good idea. Neither was complaining that his friend could no longer shapechange an unlimited number of times per day. So, I reflected back at him what he himself brought to the table.

It's how I viewed his post. Just like you viewed mine as not politically correct.
 

One thing I am seeing in this discussion is many people loosing focus and are nitpicking on certain aspects and are not reading whats really being said.

Bat, I support you. You are NOT whining. You are concerned and afraid that you have to make a choice that will undermind both your friendship with someone you live with but also also reluctantly seperate yourself from a situation you enjoy except for a few things that are dinishing the fun for you. This is not whining. this is a plea for aid. Its not splitting hairs thiers a difference.

many of the comments here have quite diligently pointed out that its a custom PClass by a 4th party fan. Originally he was using the WotC Published Pclass. He dident like it but reverted to 4th party cause it WAS weaker but not as more heavily nerfed 3.5 WotC of the class. If asked (and you have) I would suggest reviewing the 3.5 version as a WotC published peice. It is weaker still but has (presumably) had playtesting and feedback that resulted in this (not saying WotC gets it right all the time, but it does led to it lagitamacy).

As far as the thread title. We dont personally know the guy. Bat described him (and we can only trust he was accurate). Bat knows the guy more and would know if the guy is being lazy or is exercising rule 0 excessively. Several things point to that the GM is actually being lazy. The GM not knowing anything about the class until confronted by its potential power. People dont like being put on the defensive and a situation like that could put a GM in defense mode quickly expecially if they are inexperienced. When defensive people tend to react instead of respond. Their open mindedness is marred by the apperent need to correct something they cannot control and result in artifical controls that do not not nessisarly work with the rest of the machine. All to insure that they remain in control.

Another aspect I can see that suggests the GM is lazy is his changing of Finger of Death. The change made to me represents an attempt to control somethings appearent power because they quite likly do not more fully understand the power and abilities involved. And as someone pointed out, the higher level the characters become, the more options, versitility, capability they have at their disposal. This further requires that the GM understand both the groups capabilities and their counters. Not specifically everything but understand some of the basics. How do you effect ethereal creatures. What works and what doesnt etc. Instead he has changed the rules and exerted and artifical control because of the percieved power of finger of death. Again. their are counters to death magic, but since he doesnt seem to know them he's remade it into something he does understand.

Why does the above suggest he's lazy. It is not hard to find the answers with just a little time and effort to look. read through the Pclass and what it does. know what ethereal does and how ethereal creatures are affected. same with how death magic is countered. Further, what the save DC's for the spell are and know the capabilities of the creatures the party fights so as to determine what the chance that the spell will succeed or not. This is not something thats hard to do if they bothered to look.

My Advice for the GM would be that they should run lower powered games. Characters under 10th level. Further I would encourage the GM to study the rules a little more. This is not something that needs to be painstaking, just read up on what certain things do (what happens when your ethereal, skim the brief descriptions of spells for what they do and hte level of spells that do certain things, talk to the players about comprised instead of edicts and find out what they players what out of a class and what they think would be a reasonable scaling down or trade-off in abilities as they understand it).

My Advice for your friend with the shifter PClass. Built a portfolio of favorite forms. say 2 per a level once they started taking the shifter class and decide the two forms based on each level the character was (think of it almost like the Wizards Automagic spells as he gains a level he gains 2 spells to add to his portfolio, develope the favorite forms following a similar line of at 1st Level the shifter employed this and that creatures as favorite forms, at 2nd he gained this class feature and could do this, so he chose these two creatures to add to their porfolio). Have him make up a rough stat-block for what happens to the character while in that form almost like having a cheat-sheet for summoned monsters handy. Show these to the GM <Give him copies even>. The portfolio shouldent be used to limit but should represent popular or prefered forms that you'd employ.

My Advice for you. Talk to your GM And your friend. Suggest the things I suggested to help the GM better understand the game and not need to resort to Rule-0 like edicts and to help your room mate better enjoy the game by both having many of his forms at his disposal and to improve his relationship with the GM by showing them just what he can do or at least most likly can do so its not a total surprize. Assure both that the list of 20 favorite forms should not be intimidating and not to panic. the GM should use it as a limit, but the player should favor those forms.

I hope these suggestions help. Again Bat, I dont belive you are wrong. Your friend is wanting to do something that creates a difficult enviroment for poorly equiped GM. Shifters are not for the faint of heart and represent alot of potential and power. Equally the GM should have suggested or encouraged that he try something else not so bold you might say. I belive the GM is somewhat more in the wrong in how they are handling things they feel are out of their control but the shifters player is not entirely innocent either. The GM is not prepared to handle high level characters. the player should compromise and play something more not so intimidating to such a GM.
 
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Zephyrus: Thank you for supporting me. This is what I was looking for. I will do my best to follow the advice you've given. I also think he should run lower-powered games, but there is no convincing the DM of that. I also think he should have limited everyone to PHB classes only, with no prestige classes, but he didn't do that either, even though I told him I thought it was a good idea. But, oh well; he didn't, and that's why we're in this mess in the first place.
 

Bat said:
Zephyrus: Thank you for supporting me. This is what I was looking for. I will do my best to follow the advice you've given. I also think he should run lower-powered games, but there is no convincing the DM of that. I also think he should have limited everyone to PHB classes only, with no prestige classes, but he didn't do that either, even though I told him I thought it was a good idea. But, oh well; he didn't, and that's why we're in this mess in the first place.

The reason you are in this mess is that the DM didn't stand up to a pushy player, and tried to accomodate him.

The only thing that Zephyrus said that I would agree with is that the DM should probably try a lower level game. But if he wants to run a high level game, he can. Your only truly free choice in the matter is whether or not you will play in his game.
 

You can't seriously think shapechanging whenever you feel like is fair? 10 times a day seems generous to me. If you think that's bad my DM only let's me shoot my +4 bow twice per enemy. The reason? My diety "said so". He does it to everybody when he thinks they're getting too powerful. It's only +4 geez.
 

IcyCool said:
The reason you are in this mess is that the DM didn't stand up to a pushy player, and tried to accomodate him.

Agreed. The player was more of the problem than the DM. The DMs only problem was being inexperienced.

IcyCool said:
The only thing that Zephyrus said that I would agree with is that the DM should probably try a lower level game. But if he wants to run a high level game, he can. Your only truly free choice in the matter is whether or not you will play in his game.

Actually, I also agree with what Zephyrus said about talking to the DM. However, I wouldn't talk about stuff like "shifter templates", etc.

I would talk about starting a first level game (not low level, first level) which only uses core rules so that the DM can adjudicate in a relatively balanced environment.

Bat doesn't have the time to DM, so he should have his DM play scenarios where the DM is able to control both what types of abilities the PCs bring to the table, and what game elements could affect the game.

14th level doesn't do that, neither does 10th level. And the Complete Handbooks are especially too wild and potentially game breaking for an inexperienced DM (and often for experienced DMs).

To really get the experience of playing a game which is both fair to the players and balanced, the DM really should start at first level and gain the experience firsthand.
 


KarinsDad said:
Just like when I talk to the girls on my daughter's soccer team (where I am coach).
Moderator's Notes
KarinsDad, this is not your daughter's soccer team, and you may not talk to other posters as if you're their coach. This is not an issue of political correctness: it's an issue of civility, which is a requirement of our rules here.

Do not call other posters whiny. Do not talk about other posters getting their panties in a bunch. Do not imply that they are less mature than you. All these things are in violation of the user agreement that you agreed with before you were allowed to post on these boards.

If you have any questions about the rules of this messageboard, please email me or report this post. I'd like you to stay out of this thread from here on out.

Daniel
 

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