D&D 5E Legends & Lore bits about prestige classes in 5e (and NEW playtest packet!)

[FireLance]

As for the DM/Player control, I think that issue is a side effect of the prior lousy design of trying to shoehorn such elements into the class structure to begin with. Make the elements solid enough, and they'll work as things that a DM can use as rewards in one group, and as things that players can pick as a character crafting option in another group.

Something along the lines of 4e's grandmaster training/divine boon alternate magic item system, then?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Grandmaster training and boons might very well be part of a such a system, but as presented in 4E, those are too narrow.

There is an inherent limit on what can be accomplished outside the class system in D&D, lest the system be moved too far from what makes it D&D. Classes and levels are as central as anything. However, nipping around the edges doesn't really get the job done, either. In passing, that is part of what is wrong with the original 4E magic items. They tried to make them "outside the character" because that's what they've usually been in D&D, but also constrain them by the power level of the character. It just doesn't work.

Better to have a bunch of things that are very clearly part of the class/level (and so forth) growth. And then have some other things that are very clearly not. The latter group, then, is defined--no so much by the DM handing them out or the players seeking them or whatnot--as by not being tied to class and level. The structure an individual group choose to use for handing them out (or not) becomes a conscious choice in the campaign.

It's a fine line to walk, making classes and levels matter, but not making the characters cardboard or overly complex (or both) in the process by carving out features outside those classes and levels. I just don't think WotC can walk it very well by pretending that all these outside features are sort of half in, half out the class/level progression.

 

[Hussar]

The prestige class idea isn't a bad one. Giving players a cool little bennie to play with about half way through a campaign isn't a bad thing. But, it got way out of hand. There were what, some 1700 PrC's for 3.5? And that was only from WOTC. Never mind everyone else.

I like the paragon path method where you can specialize your character, but, it's not really required.

 

[Grimmjow]

as long as the preclasses dont take away from my core class or multi-class (so just lay over my classes as a extra layer of awesome) and my core classes get fun and cool things like they did in pathfinder, then ill be fine

 

[FireLance]

Grandmaster training and boons might very well be part of a such a system, but as presented in 4E, those are too narrow.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "narrow"? My personal take is that it is actually quite a flexible system, although not very well supported due to the relatively small number of boons, etc. in published material. A "big book of alternate rewards" along the lines of Adventurers' Vault could have fixed this.

In passing, that is part of what is wrong with the original 4E magic items. They tried to make them "outside the character" because that's what they've usually been in D&D, but also constrain them by the power level of the character. It just doesn't work.

Are you referring to magic item levels? IMO, that is just a balancing tool which DMs can ignore if they want. There is nothing to stop a DM from handing a ring of invisibility or a vorpal weapon to a 1st level PC if he wants.

 

[drothgery]

I entirely disagree with you. Prestige classes in third edition were a fantastic idea until they started showing up in player focused books.

... which was with the first player-focused books printed.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

... which was with the first player-focused books printed.

True. Which leads to my greater opinion, which is that Third Edition was a better game when the Players Handbook was the only player focused book.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "narrow"? My personal take is that it is actually quite a flexible system, although not very well supported due to the relatively small number of boons, etc. in published material. A "big book of alternate rewards" along the lines of Adventurers' Vault could have fixed this.

It's narrow because it tries to put everything in a little compartment to fit class advancement. You went and met this grandmaster of sneaking up on things. So he gives you this one niche edge after you jump through some hoops. It's too pat. It is very flexible within its narrow confines. I just find it's scope underwhelming.

Contrast this with something like the shaman training example in one of the versions of Rune Quest, where the character has to do all kinds of chores for the shaman in return for extended training. Now, the character can back out any time he wants, but the better extended stuff is coming later. Meanwhile, he is still a barbarian or whatever. Now, you can only go so far, not as far as RQ, because RQ is a skill-based system. But the principle is the same.

Me? I'd like to see the skill system be a major part that was split off almost entirely from class advancement, and treated mostly optional for those that want the traditional class-based game. Classes still give fixed bonuses to things, like rogues getting +3 to Sneak or such. I guess the current Backgrounds aren't too far from this. But then any advancement and broadening you do with skills becomes separate from your class/level and mostly about what you do in the game.

Same as with magic items, your opportunity for appropriate challenges to advance is somewhat limited by your level. You can't get a vorpal blade in most cases unless you handle some tough stuff? Well, you can't usually advance your diplomatic abilities unless you can talk to some hard cases. But it is possible outside of sheer levels, or with the right help, and so forth.

Or another way to think about it is keeping the traditional class/level part of the system simple while allowing for more richness to be layered onto the game optionally outside the classes and levels. It's possible, for another example, to have richer social system(s) if they aren't confined to a few feats, skills, and Cha mods.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=54877]Crazy Jerome[/MENTION], some good posts that I can't XP.

 

[pemerton]

Personally, I think that if you want a heavily narrative game with lots of player input...D&D isn't it.

<snip>

This is one of those areas where (for me) the fundamental weaknesses of the D&D framework for narrative play is exposed. Your choices in game design all seem to suffer for it.

I'm sure you're right to a significant extent. But what other system besides 4e gives the mix of highly technical action resolution mechanics, quasi-narrativist support and heroic fantasy story? (BW ticks two out of three boxes, but is grittier, more earth-bound, in its story elements.)