D&D 5E Legends & Lore bits about prestige classes in 5e (and NEW playtest packet!)

[Sunseeker]

I see that as a much broader aspect of DM-ing and D&D than just the multiclassing rules. If a player wanted to initiate such a change in the game world, that should be a (IMO) much larger and more RP-intensive thing than "I'm gonna take the Dalek prestige class." Not just because it would be more interesting to play out, but because you also have to guard against the "I invent gunpowder"-PC. I think this would be a topic better suited to DM advice somewhere in the DMG. I'm certainly not opposed to players taking initiative to change the world, but I'm leary of codifying the process to box DMs out of the worlds they create.

Bolded part for emphasis. I would honestly be fine with someone "inventing gunpowder", why? Because there's a lot more to it than that.
First you must identify which, if any elements in the world are combustible.
Then you must figure out where they're located.
Then you need to set up extraction operations, many of which are likely to fail.
All of this is going to cost serious money, which probably means investors.
Investors need to be sold on the idea that finding certain rocks and then grinding them in to powder and them using them to make a "fireball" is somehow superior to simply getting a mage who's short on cash to cast "Fireball".
Even if you DO succeed in all of these efforts, you'll still need to ensure a solid refining process that isn't prone to blow up in your face(which many early ones were).
Then you'll need to develop a delivery method, which once again will beg the question of "how is training thousands of horses to haul tons of explosives better than one mage who can cast "fireball"?"
Even if you succeed in doing that, portable firearms are still a long ways off, and even if you do develop them, they're going to plainly suck for hundreds of years.

So really, the player who says "I invent gunpowder!" is going to really have it coming to them.

But in the end, I agree, none of what I said above should be codified in the rules as to how it should play out. Some DM's may have no problem with adding firearms, steampunk, or other such things to an otherwise magical world. Other DM's, like myself and I suspect you, would want to make the actual process of "inventing" black powder so difficult as to dissuade players from trying.

It's reasonable that players should be able to try almost anything, but it's equally reasonable for the DM to set the bar, just like any other DC in the game, for success.

 

[timASW]

Prestige classes were a good concept that got splatted to death.

Paragon paths were boring, forgettable and just all around sucked.

2e kits however were a great idea and should be the inspiration for 5e's prestige classes.

Rather then being a "you must be 5th level, give or take to get this super class" they should be "this particular guild trains their rogues in this particular way with these alternate abilities from the base rogue class".

That way you can sort of replace some multi-classing, get a lot of customization of your character and the GM can use it as a tool to flesh out and add very distinctive flavor for his NPC's and world.

Most importantly they have to be something you can take at almost anytime. Like how PF does its class variants.

 

[FireLance]

Rather then being a "you must be 5th level, give or take to get this super class" they should be "this particular guild trains their rogues in this particular way with these alternate abilities from the base rogue class".

That way you can sort of replace some multi-classing, get a lot of customization of your character and the GM can use it as a tool to flesh out and add very distinctive flavor for his NPC's and world.

Most importantly they have to be something you can take at almost anytime. Like how PF does its class variants.

IMO, 4e Dark Sun style themes do exactly this, except that without a unified power structure, you're going to need a separate kit or theme for each class. Which is fine if Organization X only accepts members from a small number of classes, otherwise, for every alternate ability, you will need a small table along the lines of: to gain ability X, if you are a fighter, lose A. If you are a rogue, lose B. If you are a monk, lose C. If you are a ranger, lose D. If you are a cleric, lose E. If you are a wizard, lose F, etc.

 

[timASW]

IMO, 4e Dark Sun style themes do exactly this, except that without a unified power structure, you're going to need a separate kit or theme for each class. Which is fine if Organization X only accepts members from a small number of classes, otherwise, for every alternate ability, you will need a small table along the lines of: to gain ability X, if you are a fighter, lose A. If you are a rogue, lose B. If you are a monk, lose C. If you are a ranger, lose D. If you are a cleric, lose E. If you are a wizard, lose F, etc.

Sounds fine to me, although i do envision most as being limited to a single class or a very small number of classes. Much like kits were in 2e.

 

[Greg K]

True. Which leads to my greater opinion, which is that Third Edition was a better game when the Players Handbook was the only player focused book.

If you limit that comment, specifically, to the omission of WOTC player focused books. I agree. There are, however, some very good third party player focused books that, in my opinion, improve the game.

 

[Li Shenron]

Really? I mean, I know there were a lot of prestige classes in a lot of books, but I don't know that people bought the books for those PrC's.

As far as I remember, these boards and WotC boards were always full of comments like "please WotC update the <PrCl #315> for 3.5 asap", and "yes!!! splatbook #42 has the 3.5 version of <PrCl #527>!!", all the time...

At that time, a lot of players demanded official updates to as many PrCl as possible to 3.5. I remember, because I often commented that it seemed ridiculous to me, since the "update" most of the time was really minor, like renaming skills and not much more.

I often joked at the "3.5 update frenzy" while it happened, its re-printing of stuff... I presumed people were actually buying the stuff they kept asking for.

 

[airwalkrr]

I have now used the Test-Based Prerequisites for Prestige Classes in my campaigns for the last three or four years and love it. No more having to plan your character from level 1 or take useless prerequisites to get a prestige class. You can take any prerequisite you want provided you pass the test. And you can start taking it at any level too... provided you pass the test.

 

[Hussar]

So long as you keep the retraining rules, then prerequisites for PrC's aren't too difficult to get around. And I really do hope they keep the retraining rules.

I do kinda like the 3.5 PHB 2 rules for organizations and I think they could be used quite effectively to make a PrC template. Your position in the organization is based on what you do, not generally by level - which makes it a better fit for most campaigns. By making organizations, which can be local, large or even world wide scaled, you can pretty easily slot any PrC style path into any campaign.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

2e kit bladesinger was 3 cool new options for fighting and a small magic boost

 

[Ratskinner]

I'm sure you're right to a significant extent. But what other system besides 4e gives the mix of highly technical action resolution mechanics, quasi-narrativist support and heroic fantasy story? (BW ticks two out of three boxes, but is grittier, more earth-bound, in its story elements.)

::shrug:: Depends (to a great extent) on what you mean by "highly technical action resolution." There's folks kinda winging the fantasy part with the Cortex+ system from MHRP. FATE is very similar, if slightly more Sim, AFAICT. (Heck Legends of Anglerre for FATE is almost as heavy as 2e/3e, IMO.) Although both of those feature rather "Theatre of the Mind" style combat/conflict with characters being able to create spontaneous aspects, resources, or stunts as suits the situation. There are strict (but straightforward) rules for how those things go, but they are narrative-point driven, rather than "N squares"-based. Dungeon World also has very precise rules for how things work, although again, they aren't very "sim" and are fairly TotM. That game, in particular, generates a rather old-school DnD feel with new-school mechanics.

Now, if that doesn't check the "technical action resolution" box for you, you're right, I dunno of anything that will and still check another box or two.