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Lets design a Warlord for 5th edition

Tony Vargas

Legend
Not really. While a Warlord can fight, his solo fighting ability is not typically what makes him what he is. Unless you are going for the version of warlord that inspires allies because he's such a bad@$$. There's something to be said for that concept, but it's not really a concept that works in an RPG where everyone is equal level (it might work for an NPC who is much higher level than the party...)
That /one/ specific Warlord sub-class concept - one way of looking at the Bravura (the other is as a reckless attacker who takes risk to create openings) - out of, what, 16 or so, above, would do with having a plausible claim on "Best at Fighting" (even at the same level) and thus might work as a fighter sub-class.

... hmm... I'm starting to like the idea of splitting the Bravura into a Fighter (Bravura) Fighter/Warlord faux-MC sub-class and a Warlord (Bravado) Warlord/Fighter faux-MC sub-class...

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION],

Healing is an ability that Mearls believes should be gated behind some kind resource taking ability that you can run out of. I think most of us agree with mearls on that. This issue is that adding in a healing ability like that ends up constraining design a lot.
Not really. D&D traditionally gives daily resource high impact and great versatility, on return for nominally less frequent use. And that's exactly where gambits need to be: you don't pull a stunning tactical gambit every 6 seconds, they should be the kind of thing that happens in only some, more challenging or critical encounters, and make a real difference to them.

Not that there aren't little things you can do every round, just that, like cantrips or ordinary attacks, there'll be less to them.

Is it independent of our other warlord abilities or does it use a shared mechanic with them?
Shared, obviously, support demands flexibility.
If it's independent then we have to track the healings power and reduce the other warlordy stuff appropriately

If they share a mechanic then
Then you don't have to reduce the other warlordy stuff, you leave the distribution of the resource to the player, and the character performs better or worse as a result of that mamagement... like most classes.
 
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A support character is generally going to be short range, in terms of combat positioning. Some will push forward into the front lines, and some will move back, but generally you'll sit just behind the front lines, in order to facilitate healing, buffing, debuffing the enemy, etc. Typical stat combo is a mental stat plus Constitution. If you make the Tactical Focus idea fundamental, the Warlord becomes a long-range supporter, and has freedom to work from pretty much anywhere in the battlefield.

Given the concept of the Warlord, Int is pretty much a required stat. Its complementary stat must be Dex, Con, or Wis (the 'big three' defense stats). Every single class has proficiency in one of the 'big three', and one of the other three; never two of the same type. If Int is a given, then the complementary stat must pretty much be Con. This benefits concentration checks, assuming concentration becomes a component, as well as the frontliner Icon/Vanguard types. Even if you discount the Tactical Focus and concentration, I have a hard time seeing the Warlord fitting a Dex or Wis proficiency.

So an Int/Con support class. Of course, there are various concepts that go with it that draw on all of the other four stats. Str on the vanguard, Chr for inspiration, Dex for the ranged version, or Wis for the diplomatic or guerilla version. It's a very MAD class.
[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] came up with a lot of subclass concepts. My own approach is much more concise.

  • Icon - Inspirational focal point. Shonen hero (or protected princess). Minimum tactics, maximum guts (or luck).
  • Commander - Focuses on tactics that can be executed by allies. Mix of working to gain advantage, and reactions.
  • Strategist - Plots and schemes and creates elaborate strategems. Anticipates the enemy and preemptively counters.
  • Defender - Tactician shaping the battlefield. Affects movement, hindering the enemy, and traps.

Tony's Bravura, Inspiring, Hector, and Icon all wrap together into the same general concept (be a focus, inspire to heal, temp hp), which I call Icon. Protector might also fall in here.

His Tactical/Commander, Combat Veteran, and Artillerist all fall under what I have as Commander, though I like the extra flavor he added about the cynical world view.

His Resourceful and Skirmisher both roughly map to my Defender.

His Insightful/Watcher is my Strategist.

Marshal stands as separate from the other concepts, but also difficult to make stand on its own without breaking things. I do like the concept, but it's definitely something that needs its own specific focus time.


* Caveat: I approach this as a class that splits at level 3 to each take unique approaches, but with some common fundamentals. [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] approaches it as a class that specializes immediately at level 1, and all subclasses draw from the same base mechanics. Thus we will have very different views on what constitutes a subclass.


While I agree with pretty much all of what [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] said about role and healing, the Warlord doesn't have to be a "healer", per se. Since the HP pool is an abstract concept, it can as easily be considered a mental thing as a physical thing. If the Cleric is healing cuts and bruises, the Warlord can be boosting determination and willpower. The Cleric's side is, "How long can your body keep functioning?" The Warlord's side is, "How long can you keep fighting without giving up?"

So I think it's fine to make it a class that helps restore HP as a baseline, even if I agree it shouldn't be a "healer" class. The description of its abilities should be more along the lines of Second Wind than Inspirational Healing.


Anyway, here's what I would put together. Usual caveat that balance and level-appropriateness is nowhere near guaranteed, and I likely went a bit overboard. Too much combat stuff, and not enough general subclass stuff.


Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, Martial Weapons.


1st Level:
– Tactical Focus: Each turn you may choose a set of contiguous combat spaces within 100' of you. This is your Tactical Focus. It remains as you set it as long as you focus on it (as if concentrating on a spell), change it, or until you become incapacitated. The total number of combat spaces you can focus on is 3 + your current Warlord level.
– Willpower Boost: You provide inspiration or motivation to your allies which restores their ability to fight. If allies within your Tactical Focus regain hit points due to a spell or ability in excess of their maximum hit points, the excess becomes temporary hit points.
– Teamwork: When you use the Help action to assist on an ability check, you may affect anyone in your Tactical Focus.
– Encouragement: You may grant an ally in your Tactical Focus twice your level in hit points.
– Gambits: You have a few tricks up your sleeve that may help turn the tables on enemies. A gambit lasts for as long as your Tactical Focus is maintained, or until you use another gambit.
– – Baiting: You may cause an enemy to head towards any selected ally (including yourself) within your Tactical Focus, if the enemy is not currently engaged.
– – Distraction: If you hit an enemy within your Tactical Focus, the next attack made against it is made with advantage.

>> Mechanism and use of gambits and moving the Tactical Focus uncertain. Sometimes they stumble over each other.

2nd Level:
– Fighting Style: Archery, Dueling, Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Great Weapon Fighting, Protection


3rd Level:
– Warlord Archetype:
– – Icon
– – Commander
– – Strategist
– – Defender


4th Level:
– ASI (and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th)


5th Level:
– You may use an additional reaction each turn. Only one reaction may be used for an opportunity attack.


Miscellaneous minor gambits:
10th Level:
13th Level:
18th Level:

20th Level: Capstone




Icon Archetype

3rd Level:
– Attention Grabber: Everyone notices you, for good or ill. Your Tactical Focus is, by default, an aura around you that reaches 10 feet from you. This size increases by 5 feet every 5 levels.
– Inspiring: Any abilities you use that grant hit points add your Charisma modifier to the total (minimum 1).
– Rally: Shout a rallying cry, give an inspirational speech, or mock your enemy. All non-hostiles in your Tactical Focus are granted a number of hit points equal to twice your level, and have advantage on their next saving throw before the end of your next turn.
– Cry for Aid: As a reaction to being attacked, you may ask for the aid of a nearby companion. An ally in your aura may move to position themselves in your location, pushing you back 5 feet, and take the attack for you. If the ally has a higher AC, the attack may miss.

5th Level:
– Extra attack: When you make an attack with the Attack action, you may make an additional attack.
– Not on My Watch: When an ally has been reduced to 0 hit points, you can automatically stabilize them if you are within 5 feet of them.

7th Level:
– Unstoppable: You gain resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing attacks.
– Eyes on Me!: As all enemies in your aura focus on you, your allies have advantage on all attacks against those enemies until the start of your next turn.

9th Level:
– My Hero: When an ally answers your Cry for Aid, they gain a bonus of +5 to their AC until the end of the turn.
– Save the Day: As a reaction when an ally in your aura is attacked, you may act as a shield, imposing yourself between the enemy and your ally in order to take the attack on yourself.
– Hold!: As a reaction when an enemy moves through your aura towards an ally, you may move to block its movement. The enemy loses half of its movement speed.

11th Level:
– Turning Point: When using Rally, allies in your aura gain advantage on their next attack.

15th Level:
– Big Damn Hero: When you Save the Day, you gain advantage on all attacks until the end of your next turn.
– Gain profiency in Wisdom saves.


Commander Archetype

Gain Proficiency in Heavy Armor.

3rd Level:
- Coordinated Assault: You may have two gambits active at the same time.
– Formation: Gambit: All allies in your Tactical Focus gain +1 AC.
– Careful Movement: Gambit: Enemies may not make opportunity attacks against allies in your tactical focus.
– Strike!: You may use one of your attacks to direct an ally to make an attack as a reaction.

5th Level:
– Wolf Attack: Gambit: When an ally attacks a hostile creature in your Tactical Focus, that creature is knocked prone.
– Giant's Push: Gambit: When an ally attacks a hostile creature in your Tactical Focus that is no more than one size larger than the ally, the creature is knocked back 5 feet.
– Dive for Cover: As a reaction to an area effect ability or spell, you shout a warning, and all allies within your Tactical Focus may move up to half their movement before the spell takes effect.
– Charge!: Using an attack, you can direct an ally to make a charge attack. As a reaction, they may move up to half their speed towards a target and make an attack.

7th Level:
– Ambush: Gambit: When an enemy enters your Tactical Focus, you may use your reaction to allow your allies to move up to half their speed towards the enemy.
– Reposition: An ally may use half their movement in order to swap positions with any other ally in your Tactical Focus.

9th Level:
– Group Strategy: You may have up to three gambits active at the same time.

11th Level:
– Burst of Speed: Gambit: An ally who starts their turn in your Tactical Focus increases their speed by 10 feet until the end of their turn.

15th Level:
– Proper Training: Gambit: Once per turn, an ally in your Tactical Focus who misses an attack may reroll that attack.


Strategist Archetype

3rd Level:
– Crafty: You may use gambits from any archetype.
– I Know What You Were Planning: Roll two d20's at the end of each long rest and record the values. You may use a reaction to use one of those rolls to replace any attack rolls, saving rolls, or ability check rolls that have not yet had their effect resolved, as long as the relevant creature is within your Tactical Focus.

5th Level:
– Ready: All allies who can see you may add your Intelligence modifier to their Initiative rolls, and have advantage on Perception checks to avoid being surprised.
– Instigate: You can instigate a rage within enemies that are in your Tactical Focus. The enemy acts as if they were under the effects of Reckless Attack until the end of your next turn.
– Pile On: Gambit: If more than one ally is within 5 feet of an enemy in your Tactical Focus, they each get a bonus to their damage rolls equal to your Intelligence modifier.

7th Level:
– Fear Me: If you reduce an enemy to 0 hit points, you may do so in such a way as to frighten any enemies that can see you, as in the Fear spell. The DC is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier.
– Interrupt: You may use a reaction to use an attack against a spellcaster casting a spell within 60 feet of you. If the attack hits, it acts as the spell Counterspell.

9th Level:
– Mastermind: You add your proficiency bonus to all Intelligence or Wisdom ability checks.
– Expectation: An ally of your choice may start an encounter in a hidden position.

11th Level:
– Brazen Approach: You may approach the leader of a hostile group without provoking opportunity attacks, or being otherwise hindered.
– Brazen Presence: You have advantage on Charisma ability checks against the leader of a hostile group.

15th Level:
– Fake: When you are reduced to 0 hit points, you are instead reduced to 1 hit point. You appear somewhere else within your Tactical Focus, while a facade crumbles before your attacker.


Defender Archetype

3rd Level:
– Planning Area: You already expected this would happen. You may define an area for your Tactical Focus that is triple the default number of combat spaces, but cannot be moved, and must include your current position. You have resources and traps set up within this area.
– I've Got One of Those: You've got a variety of mundane items stashed away for a rainy day. Up to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) mundane items may be found stashed in places in your planning area for you or your allies to pick up. Your DM determines where any given item is located. At the end of the battle, the items are returned to your "rainy day" box.
– Trap Card: You have up to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) traps planted within your planning area. You may activate one as an action on your turn to incapacitate it until the end of your next turn. (limits? other effects?)

5th Level:
– Secret Passages: Any ally in your planning area who is out of the line of sight of any enemies may use half their movement to move to any other unoccupied location in the planning area.
– Explosions: After setting off a trap, the area within 10 feet of the trap space becomes difficult terrain, and is heavily obscured until the start of your next turn.

7th Level:
– Cover!: Your planning area is filled with odds and ends that can be used to befuddle an enemy. An ally in your planning area is always considered to have at least half cover.

9th Level:
– Trapdoors: Gambit: Allies in your planning area may use the Hide action regardless of whether enemies can see them.
– That Hurt: Your traps now stun the enemy until the end of your next turn.

11th Level:
– I See You: Enemy units in your planning area may not gain any benefit from half cover.

15th Level:
– Eternal Maze: Any enemy that attempts to leave your planning area must succeed on an Intelligence (Investigation) check. If it fails, it instead re-enters the area at a random location along the outer edge. The DC of the check is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier.



-------------

The subclasses need a lot of refining. I threw in a bunch of ideas that felt appropriate for the general concept of each archetype, even if expressed in different ways (eg: the hero vs the damsel for the Icon archetype), but may have gone overboard. Also, the whole Tactical Focus/Gambit mechanism is subject to "not working quite right".

Icon: hero, damsel, vanguard
Commander: tactician, veteran
Strategist: manipulator, trickster, social handler
Defender: trapper, ambusher, movement specialist

Didn't expect the Strategist to go that way, but it is what it is. Blame Kanki. On the other hand, the mechanics of Icon really match well with each of those character concepts (though the ability names may need tweaking).

I didn't work much on determining how much healing is viable, as the entire power balance is at an unknown level right now. I figure that's something that can be tweaked until it feels right.

It's late. I'm sure there are plenty of problems. Will deal with them later.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
Not really. While a Warlord can fight, his solo fighting ability is not typically what makes him what he is. Unless you are going for the version of warlord that inspires allies because he's such a bad@$$. There's something to be said for that concept, but it's not really a concept that works in an RPG where everyone is equal level (it might work for an NPC who is much higher level than the party...)
Oh! You thought I was being serious? Or maybe just dumping on the topic? I only just, I assure you. There is a lot of good thought and hard work on display here, and I never make fun of that (even if it is Warlord thread #1485). Keep up the good work! Remember, "bossy".
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
I know it's heresy to say "warlord should be a fighter subclass" but that's how I feel because of the story behind it. I also think the noble class, from EN5ider's Touch of Class, makes a really good warlord. Basically I view the fighter/warlord relationship similar to that of rogue/thief. Thief could be its own class with its own subclasses, but rogue's a broad chassis that can support some pretty divergent character concepts. Likewise, while the game could support a warlord class, fighter should be able to cover it. Given the choice, I usually opt for fewer classes.

To make this comment productive, here's my version of the Warlord martial archetype, maybe there is something in here that you folks can use. I particularly like my Commander's Strike wording, since it alleviates a problem many people seem to have with the warlord, by giving the recipient more options.



Martial Archetype: Warlord

Inspiring Word
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your presence inspires allies to fight on despite grievous wounds. As a bonus action, you can shout words of encouragement to an ally within 30 feet who can hear you and who has at least 1 hit point. The ally regains hit points equal to your fighter level + your Charisma modifier (minimum 1 point). Once an ally benefits from this ability, they can’t benefit from it again until they finish a short or long rest.

At 10th level, you can target multiple creatures with a single use of this ability, although each target can still only benefit once before finishing a rest.

Combat Leader
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain a bonus to initiative equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum +1). Allies within 30 feet of you that can see or hear you also gain the bonus.

Commander’s Strike
Starting at 7th level, your sense of the flow of battle is unmatched, and you can aid allies remotely through tactical advice, subtle distractions, or well-timed interference. Once per turn when you take the Attack action on your turn, you may give up one of your attacks to assist a willing ally within 30 feet who can hear you. The ally may use their reaction to make a single attack. If they choose not to do so or have no reaction available, then their next attack gains a bonus to attack equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum +1), provided it is made before the end of their next turn.

Commanding Presence
At 10th level, your reputation precedes you, your voice naturally rises above the din of battle, and you know how to instantly gain the respect and attention of even the most jaded of warriors. Add double your proficiency bonus when you make a Charisma check to interact with soldiers under your command, troops who are allied with you, or enemy forces engaged in parley.

Lead the Attack
At 15th level, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can call out to your allies to aid you. Allies within 60 feet who can hear you gain a bonus to attack and damage against the creature you hit until the end of your next turn. The bonus equals your Intelligence bonus (minimum +1). Once you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

Lord of War
When you reach 18th level, you may use an action to let loose a fearsome war cry, rallying your allies. Allies within 60 feet of you that can hear you gain a bonus to AC and saving throws for as long as they can see or hear you, up to 1 minute. The bonus equals your Charisma bonus or your Intelligence bonus, whichever is better (minimum +1). Once you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

NOTES
  • This thing could be grossly overpowered. It’s really hard for me to judge since most of the abilities affect only allies, not the warlord. This class certainly seems more powerful than the Purple Dragon Knight, but that class seems weak to me, compared to the kind of raw damage that battlemasters and champions can dish out.
  • Inspiring Word specifically doesn’t work on people with 0 hit points because a) it doesn’t make sense to me and b) to differentiate the Inspiring Word from healing word. The warlord isn’t magic so when somebody drops, he has to run over and pour a potion into them. That’s what you get for not having to burn spell slots.
  • I didn’t want to use temporary hit points because that has a very different usage dynamic: temp hp can exceed normal hp, so there’s incentive to apply temp hp very early on. Regular healing is only relevant later, after damage has been dealt. Temp hp also doesn’t stack with the Inspiring Leader feat’s temp hp, and I feel warlords should work well with Inspiring Leader.
  • Commander’s Strike allows the targeted ally to decide whether to use up their reaction or accept a bonus for later, which should reduce the feeling that the warlord player gets to boss around the other players. Both options are powerful, but they should be, since the warlord is giving up an attack and fighters tend to have good attacks.
  • This class has some MAD (Multiple-Ability Disorder) since its abilities key off of both Charisma and Intelligence. I think that’s OK since both seem like viable paths, and it pressures warlords to have lower physical stats than other fighters, which is somewhat appropriate. It’s also a hedge against the possibility that the archetype is overpowered.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
A support character is generally going to be short range, in terms of combat positioning. Some will push forward into the front lines, and some will move back, but generally you'll sit just behind the front lines, in order to facilitate healing, buffing, debuffing the enemy, etc.
Really, D&D's individuals-not-units tactical scale usually means not a great distinction between just off the front lines and 'long range.' Two warlord sub-concepts - the effete-general take on the Lazy Lord and the Artillerist could be long-range in a more literal sense, though...

Given the concept of the Warlord, Int is pretty much a required stat.
INT or CHA or WIS could work depending on emphasis and sub-class.

Another idea I'm starting to like is that the Warlord probably needs to be MAD, at least, some of the sub-classes should lend themselves to that, or maybe the chassis should lend itself to MAD, and some of the sub-classes more to a specific stat. For instance, an Inspiring Warlord was straight-up CHA, Tactical INT, and Resourceful split the difference.

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] came up with a lot of subclass concepts.
To be fair, I just collected them from the other theread. Cribbed 8 of them from 4e, a few more from 4e Paragon Paths, several from [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] and the Protector from your Defender, consolidated with some of his more oddball ideas. But the troop-marshaling 'Marshal' (credit for the name goes to the d20-era Miniatures Handbook) is about the only original sub-class I offered, myself, IIRC.
(Anyone I stole from without attribution, please feel free to correct me.)

But, even consolidating a number of them, it came out to 16 at my last count.


. Basically I view the fighter/warlord relationship similar to that of rogue/thief.
The Thief was the original name of the class. It was changed to Rogue, and, over time, the concept broadened and became better-supported, much better at it's original speciality, able to pursue other specialties, and, via SA, combat. Finally, in 5e, it came full circle, and the theif name was used as a rogue sub-class, along with it's original sub-class, the Assassin.

The fighter & warlord don't have that history, the fighter's name was never changed, it has wobbled aground laterally, more than gained better support, suffering more from being too generic than too specific. In 5e, its old sub-classes are full classes, in spite of having concepts as narrow as the theif's, though, it could be argued that the Champion calls back it's older incarnations.

The Warlord, rather, like the Rogue, Ranger, & Paladin, was broken out from the too-generic fighter which lacked support for such concepts.
 
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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
It does beg the question (in conjunction with "let's make Ranger as a Fighter subclass" thread and kind of intersecting with the "ideal class organization" thread) can the game be complete and satisfying with the game offering:

Fighter (full/base class)
--Paladin subclass
--Ranger subclass
--Warlord subclass
(presumably people would want to keep --Eldritch Knight subclass for the psuedo-ftr/mu multiclass)

I think the answer is clearly, yes. It could be a complete and satisfying game, allowing for whatever character broadness within each and/or layered by other elements (backgrounds, etc...).

But it would undoubtedly get certain persons/playstyles who have grown up with "full classes for every character concept," and/or "every corner case permutation I can come up with must needs be supported" up in arms.

Edit: I forgot the Barbarian! So...

Fighter (full/base class)
--Barbarian (Con.ftr, + Rage, extra attacks, more damage, no magic, survival/endurance skills)
--Warlord (Cha.ftr, + Inspire, extra attacks, more hits via others, saves for others, no magic, interactive skills)
--Eldritch Knight [don't love the name] (Int. ftr, +limited Arcane spells & powers, more offense and defense through magic)
--Paladin (Wis. ftr, +limited Divine spells & powers, more offense & defense through magic)
--Ranger (Dex. ftr, +limited Nature spells & powers, more offense & utility through magic, nature & stealth skills)

/Edit
 
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Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
The Thief was the original name of the class. It was changed to Rogue, and, over time, the concept broadened and became better-supported, much better at it's original speciality, able to pursue other specialties, and, via SA, combat. Finally, in 5e, it came full circle, and the theif name was used as a rogue sub-class, along with it's original sub-class, the Assassin.

The fighter & warlord don't have that history, the fighter's name was never changed, it has wobbled aground laterally, more than gained better support, suffering more from being too generic than too specific. In 5e, its old sub-classes are full classes, in spite of having concepts as narrow as the theif's, though, it could be argued that the Champion calls back it's older incarnations.

The Warlord, rather, like the Rogue, Ranger, & Paladin, was broken out from the too-generic fighter which lacked support for such concepts.

Maybe the a eccentric idea would be to simply remove the Fighter class, since most of its old ''archetype'' that had flavor are now full classes. You got a full class for the holy knight, the crafty woodsman, the roguish adventurer. Just create a full class for the inspiring swordsman (called whatever), a ''Knave'' archetype for the rogue to use martial weapons and heavier armors to play the shocktrooper or brooding mercenary (maybe also change ''sneak attack'' to something more generic like Piercing Attack or Pinpoint Accuracy or Cunning Strike etc) and a Mystic-Knight class or Wizard subclass. No more generic fight-y guy.
 

mellored

Legend
But it would undoubtedly get certain persons/playstyles who have grown up with "full classes for every character concept," and/or "every corner case permutation I can come up with must needs be supported" up in arms.
I don't think there's as many of those people as you expect.

But if you want to put all those sub-classes into the fighter, you need to redo the fighter to make more room...
Which i will go do...
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It does beg the question (in conjunction with "let's make Ranger as a Fighter subclass" thread and kind of intersecting with the "ideal class organization" thread) can the game be complete and satisfying with the game offering:

Fighter (full/base class)
--Barbarian (Con.ftr, + Rage, extra attacks, more damage, no magic, survival/endurance skills)
--Warlord (Cha.ftr, + Inspire, extra attacks, more hits via others, saves for others, no magic, interactive skills)
--Eldritch Knight [don't love the name] (Int. ftr, +limited Arcane spells & powers, more offense and defense through magic)
--Paladin (Wis. ftr, +limited Divine spells & powers, more offense & defense through magic)
--Ranger (Dex. ftr, +limited Nature spells & powers, more offense & utility through magic, nature & stealth skills)
Pretty nearly an unpdated Warrior Class Group, or, toss Rogue in under there, too, and you've got an Essentials-era Martial Source.

I think the answer is clearly, yes. It could be a complete and satisfying game, allowing for whatever character broadness within each and/or layered by other elements (backgrounds, etc...).
I don't think I can disagree, though it's pretty hypothetical, putting 4 full classes under one like that.

But it would undoubtedly get certain persons/playstyles who have grown up with "full classes for every character concept," and/or "every corner case permutation I can come up with must needs be supported" up in arms.
For me, at least, I like consistency in designs. So if you had Fighter, Mage, and Cleric, big-C 'Classes' and Fighter had the above 'sub-classes' (which were capable of doing justice to any build from prior eds or concept from genre that'd have to fit under them); and the Mage had Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, Artificer, Bladesinger, Swordmage, Witch, Sha'ir, Binder, Beguiler, Magus, &c (ditto); and the Cleric had Druid, Pacifist, Cloistered, Avenger, Invoker, Templar, &c (ditto), cool, why not. Or, if all those guys and more got classes, OK, at least we can still play all of them. But if you had Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, Artificer, Bladesinger, Swordmage, Witch, Sha'ir, Wu-jen, Binder & Beguiler as classes, and then the Cleric, above, with sub-classes, and a Fighter, Barbarian, Thief and Paladin, we'll it wouldn't quite add up. Some concepts would be stretching to fill a class, others would be squeezed and some would be lost.


Maybe the a eccentric idea would be to simply remove the Fighter class, since most of its old ''archetype'' that had flavor are now full classes.
Neither an eccentric or a new idea, just a radical one. The 'big 4' - fighter, cleric, magic-user & thief are enshrined due to D&D tradition, even though two of them have blandly generic names and one of them painfully narrow. Even though two of them are mildly redundant & consequently over-specialized. Even though none actually work that well, individually to model characters from genre. We're still stuck/blessed with their legacy.


I don't think there's as many of those people as you expect.

But if you want to put all those sub-classes into the fighter, you need to redo the fighter to make more room...
Which i will go do...
Oh, there's folks who get real picky about their D&D being really D&D... and if they aren't that many, they are that loud.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Orrr, maybe "better," because I reeally like the idea of making the Warlord the "smart fighter" and using Int. for them...

Then the EK becomes the Cha. fighter and becomes more Ftr/Sorcerer or Fighter/Mystic, dare I say [and tm] "Jedish"? Could also cover some samurai or other mystic-warrior archetypes/traditions.

It's a concept I think lots of people like and would like to have access to, and would give the Fighter a bit more nichey thing of their own, but D&D specifically hasn't really ever gotten quite right. Also, then, enshrines a "psychic warrior" into the core of the game...with the added benefit of freeing up the "wizard with a sword and some combat ability/strength to go with their int." -true mu/ftr- archetype to fall under the arcane caster set up (Mage/Wizard/whatever the overarching type is).
 

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