Lets design a Warlord for 5th edition

[FrogReaver]

Speaking on 5e subclass design, I think subclasses shouldn't have had pre slotted abilities but instead a basic fighter got a full level 20 slate of abilities and subclasses picked and replaced some of those. Subclasses would be available at various levels not just a set predefined level. If only....

 

[FrogReaver]

So my ideal progression in the early levels:
1. Warlords Ability (once per round ability with a wide variety of effects. I prefer using triggers like attacking, hitting or an ally being hit etc to help allow the warlord to grant allies abilities on their turn, these would cost no kind of action or reaction)
2. Subclass Ability
3. Enhanced Warlord's Ability (a few powered up extra uses of the ability per short rest, healing will be a power up on some of the abilities)
4. ASI
5. Improved Warlord's Ability (every Warlord's ability now is enhanced to a level 5 version, granting substantially greater effects, potentially including extra attacks etc)

Honestly once the first 5 levels are mapped out the rest of the class gets much easier to design.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think we all have some major differences of opinion on whether the heart and soul of the warlord should be
-at will abilities
-short rest abilities
-long rest abilities
-per encounter abilities
-hybrid

It seems like daily/long rest is unavoidable, as in the podcast Meals set out an underlying design convention that anything that might be used to restore hps must be on that time scale. I can only assume that's in support of day length.

Likewise, every class has at-will abilities.

That leaves short rest, which is how the warlord-adjacent BM & PDK recover.

Encounter or per-enemy limitations seem logical, to me, but is there any 5e precedent?

Do you have some of each even if it greatly constrains your design space on either.

What constraint? Numerous classes have both very significant daily and modest at will capability.

 

[FrogReaver]

It seems like daily/long rest is unavoidable, as in the podcast Meals set out an underlying design convention that anything that might be used to restore hps must be on that time scale. I can only assume that's in support of day length.

Totally agree. There needs to be some kind of short or long rest mechanism for healing. Healing can't be at will. There's various ways to realize this and still keep the base power at will:
-give a short rest or long rest pool that can be used to enhance the at will abilities
-give a separate healing ability that is independent of the base at will power (possibly akin to lay on hands in strength)
-tie healing to a DC check that increases on a per ally basis each time you heal them.

other ideas?

Likewise, every class has at-will abilities.

Kinda maybe sort-of, kinda not. Depends more on how your defining an at-will ability at that point.

That leaves short rest, which is how the warlord-adjacent BM & PDK recover.

Short rest is kind of the defacto assumption for martial style recharging powers. Of course Samaurai threw a monkey wrench in that and so there's a lot more options in designing this than trying to pigeon hole it into a short rest mechanic when it might fare better as something else.

Encounter or per-enemy limitations seem logical, to me, but is there any 5e precedent?

I don't think it matters as long as it feels right for the ability in question. Like a Battle Plan ability could easily be encounter based. It's something that can easily be envisioned as happening every encounter

What constraint? Numerous classes have both very significant daily and modest at will capability.

Making one set of abilities stronger means the other set of abilities needs to get weaker. That's a design constraint and a tradeoff. Enlarging the box of Daily abilities shrinks the box for at-will abilities and vice versa

 

[FrogReaver]

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

Since your direction is so strongly pushing to have the Warlord's Core ability be daily perhaps you can give us a preview of how to capture that ability and any others needed at level 1 while still keeping the potential healing power level in line with a cleric or bard and having as much potential combat power as those classes?

How would you accomplish that? Further, how would you plan on scaling the Warlord Core ability in the level 1-5 range to ensure the warlord has enough uses and power in his core ability to keep up in power with classes like the cleric and bard?

 

[Azzy]

Oh, no. That "Joe normal Fighter" guy is still the Fighter. I didn't mean that you HAD to take a subclass. If you want to be a Fighter, be a Fighter...and THEN there are thee other flavors of Fighter you could choose for whatever reason you'd want.

Ah, I see. Thank's for the clarification.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Totally agree. There needs to be some kind of short or long rest mechanism for healing.

I did not get the impression that short rest healing was on the table.

other ideas?

Maybe it's a tad conventional, but: a resource that's allocated dynamically to healing or other functions, giving the character the flexibility to support the party in a way that fits the current situation, and the player, incidentally, some 'agency.'

Kinda maybe sort-of, kinda not. Depends more on how your defining an at-will ability at that point.

OK, I'll take a stab: Something you can do every round it's applicable, regardless of how many times you've done it before, that is above and beyond the warm-body base line of actions anyone can take with no check or that can be resolved with just non-proficient checks & attacks.

Short rest is kind of the defacto assumption for martial style recharging powers. Of course Samaurai threw a monkey wrench in that and so there's a lot more options in designing this than trying to pigeon hole it into a short rest mechanic when it might fare better as something else.

Good enough for a fighter sub-class, perhaps, not so much a full class?

I don't think it matters as long as it feels right for the ability in question. Like a Battle Plan ability could easily be encounter based. It's something that can easily be envisioned as happening every encounter

That would make sense from the conceptual level. Then again, a given battle-plan might not work for every enemy & situation, and abstracting that would not be unreasonable.

Also, sticking to the plan could require focus - Mearls mentioned concentration, but didn't go there with the sub-class, but for a full class, could work. Heck, everyone wanting the benefits might have to concentrate on the plan. Plus, concentration is mechanically/conceptually analogous to Bo9S/4e stances.

...

Making one set of abilities stronger means the other set of abilities needs to get weaker.

Not that I've observed. Or, rather, with a flexible resource, it's naturally taken care of by managing the resource. If you use all your CS dice for rally, your temp-granting ability was stronger, if you use some for precision strike your ability to hit was stronger and your granting temps weaker.

Enlarging the box of Daily abilities shrinks the box for at-will abilities and vice versa

OK, IDK if box size is the best metaphor.

5e isn't tightly or carefully balanced against extremes, as was pretty evident from the peek into the process that we got. But, it clearly does have a rough balance point at a certain day length. A certain number of rounds that your best (daily) or second-string(short rest) stuff applies, and the remainder phoned in with your at-wills. So, if you have kinda crap at-wills and no short rest abilities, a few dailies can be spectacular.

It seems fairly numerous and potent dailies are a given, driven by the option of adequate healing, which requires more modest at-wills.

So putting most of the class's more powerful functions in the same account as the healing seems the only plausible option.

And, since the class is not meant to quite match the cleric as iconic healer, that means the non-healing alternatives should be pretty nice... because that will result in less healing used, for one thing.

 

[mellored]

I think we all have some major differences of opinion on whether the heart and soul of the warlord should be
-at will abilities
-short rest abilities
-long rest abilities
-per encounter abilities
-hybrid

All of the above, depending on the power.
Just like warlock invocations have some passive, some active, some eldrich blast (weapon attack) boosters , and some 1/short rest, and some 1/long rest.

i.e.
Trip: You can trip as a bonus action.
No Gambit Wasted: When an enemy makes a saving throw against a spell or similar effect, with no other effect (such as hold person), you can use your reaction to let the ally keep his spell slot. An ally can only benifit from this once per rest.
Spring the Trap: Your enemy just walked into your carefully crafted trap. As a reaction, when an enemy moves, you an all your allies can immediately take an action. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you take a long rest.


Though leaning mostly towards at-will.

 

[Tony Vargas]

[MENTION=996]
Since your direction is so strongly pushing to have the Warlord's Core ability be daily

I'm not pushing, just adapting to the underlying 5e design convention.

I'd rather see the daily healing limit maintained by HD, but that'd presumably be too 4e, and not add enough daily healing, consistently enough to support the required day length.

Too bad, I think combining HD-fueled healing with inspiration & CS dice fueled maneuvers, and per-encounter/enemy limited gambits could've delivered closer to concept, and been more dynamic situational, and interesting.

 

[FrogReaver]

All of the above, depending on the power.
Just like warlock invocations have some passive, some active, some eldrich blast (weapon attack) boosters , and some 1/short rest, and some 1/long rest.

i.e.
Trip: You can trip as a bonus action.
No Gambit Wasted: When an enemy makes a saving throw against a spell or similar effect, with no other effect (such as hold person), you can use your reaction to let the ally keep his spell slot. An ally can only benifit from this once per rest.
Spring the Trap: Your enemy just walked into your carefully crafted trap. As a reaction, when an enemy moves, you an all your allies can immediately take an action. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you take a long rest.


Though leaning mostly towards at-will.

Might could work. I like the flexibility. I'm worried about how you would scale the "invocations"?

I'm also worried about the lack of a shared pool of resources for them. So an invocation that says you can heal an ally once per short rest literally means that at most you get 3x heals per short rest.

Possibly fleshing out the idea would be for each short rest power granting invocation to give an extra short rest resource and the new ability. Same for the long rest one? This still doesn't solve scaling though. Or maybe it does?