Lets design a Warlord for 5th edition

[FrogReaver]

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION],

Healing is an ability that Mearls believes should be gated behind some kind resource taking ability that you can run out of. I think most of us agree with mearls on that. This issue is that adding in a healing ability like that ends up constraining design a lot.

Is it independent of our other warlord abilities or does it use a shared mechanic with them?

If it's independent then we have to track the healings power and reduce the other warlordy stuff appropriately

If they share a mechanic then suddenly you are requiring that mechanic to be gated behind some kind of spell slot or superiority dice or ki style mechanic. None of those abilities equal to the heal can then be at will, whereas there's many abilities a warlord could do at will that are just as strong as healing but because of how healing works, at will healing is bad.

Basically, be aware of how your demands for core class healing will constrain other warlord mechanics.

 

[FrogReaver]

The catch is that 3rd level is "the subclass level" while 4th is the ASI. And 5th should really be Extra Attack. The warlord isn't all about attacking, but it should keep pace with the ranger, paladin, barbarian, and Valour bard.
Similarly, like the paladin and ranger, it really needs Fighting Style so you can be good at archery, TWF, or the like. It's a nice customisation point.

That means you heal an insignificant amount at 2nd level (with Fighting Style) or healing is all you get at first level. But you really want a warlord to do, well, warlordy things at 1st level. (And 2nd level for that matter.) Things only the warlord can do.
Healing could be delayed until 6th/7th level (depending on when the second subclass feature kicks in). But it's still coming at the cost of some tactical powers. Stuff that could be unique to the class.

But I'd rather keep the warlord focused on tactical features and leave the healing in the subclass, where you can double down on those features. Otherwise you get the Vanguard warlord or Standard Bearer warlord with rando healing powers despite not being the "healer" character. If feels like a wasted level to the player (and an opportunity to just multiclass into fighter or cleric).


Not my finest name given the real world connotations, but it really conveys the concept. (And real world "warlords" aren't so nice either.) Guerrillas are military forces known for the ambush tactics of the same name, so with a single word it tells you exactly what the subclass should do.
But this is a super rough draft, so I'm open to suggestions.


I'm brainstorming more, but it's not as easy as some classes...
Reading about positions in medieval armies can give ideas. If I think of more I'll edit them in.

Personally, I'd follow the wizard subclass progression a little closer

I like Warlord Primary ability coming in at 1st (It will scale). I actually like making 2nd level the subclass level for Warlords because helps define them earlier on and leaves level 3 open for potentially buffing their primary ability which I feel is the most important part for getting the warlord feel.

As for healing I would lean toward it being tied to the warlords primary ability or to a subclass or maybe both.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Warlord: exactly like whatever version of fighter class you're playing. But bossy. And with more Charisma. Enjoy!

 

[FrogReaver]

Warlord: exactly like whatever version of fighter class you're playing. But bossy. And with more Charisma. Enjoy!

Not really. While a Warlord can fight, his solo fighting ability is not typically what makes him what he is. Unless you are going for the version of warlord that inspires allies because he's such a bad@$$. There's something to be said for that concept, but it's not really a concept that works in an RPG where everyone is equal level (it might work for an NPC who is much higher level than the party...)

 

[Hussar]

People just can resist the drive by threadcrapping can they? Good grief.

I wonder if we might not take this in a different direction perhaps. Figher subclass is a very steep hill to climb because the fighter base class just has so much going on. As was mentioned, when do you add this or that bit when the base class is already adding stuff pretty much every level from first to sixth? The only really "free" level is 3rd, when the subclass kicks in.

But, what about rogues? I think the Mastermind as a proof of concept works rather well. Here's a class that actually not too bad for emulating a warlord. It's not there yet, but, it's certainly along the path. And, nicely enough, rogues come with a very handy dice pool built right in that can be used to power various warlord effects.

Imagine something like this:

Tactical mastery: When you deal sneak attack damage, you may trade some of that damage for the following effects:

Trade 1 sneak attack die and grant an ally one of the following as a reaction - a Dash action, a bonus saving throw vs any ongoing effect, 1d6 HP (could be temp HP if you like, I'm not fussy)
Trade 2 sneak attack dice and grant one ally one of the following as a reaction - a single attack, or a skill check.

Now, right there, that solves, in my mind a lot of the issues with warlords. You're trading 2d6 guaranteed damage to grant a single attack from an ally, so, it's not overpowered. Because it keys off the warlord making attacks and hitting, you can up gun the effects slightly since they don't always work - you need to sneak attack, and hit.

Add in some more ribbon powers along the way, and that would make a decent warlord. Maybe at 5th level (or 6th) he gets a second weapon attack. Fair enough. I'd have to actually crunch it all out, but, it seems to me that this would be a better start. Variations of the subclass could focus on what actions are granted, perhaps bonuses to those actions, that sort of thing.

 

[FrogReaver]

People just can resist the drive by threadcrapping can they? Good grief.

I wonder if we might not take this in a different direction perhaps. Figher subclass is a very steep hill to climb because the fighter base class just has so much going on. As was mentioned, when do you add this or that bit when the base class is already adding stuff pretty much every level from first to sixth? The only really "free" level is 3rd, when the subclass kicks in.

But, what about rogues? I think the Mastermind as a proof of concept works rather well. Here's a class that actually not too bad for emulating a warlord. It's not there yet, but, it's certainly along the path. And, nicely enough, rogues come with a very handy dice pool built right in that can be used to power various warlord effects.

Imagine something like this:

Tactical mastery: When you deal sneak attack damage, you may trade some of that damage for the following effects:

Trade 1 sneak attack die and grant an ally one of the following as a reaction - a Dash action, a bonus saving throw vs any ongoing effect, 1d6 HP (could be temp HP if you like, I'm not fussy)
Trade 2 sneak attack dice and grant one ally one of the following as a reaction - a single attack, or a skill check.

Now, right there, that solves, in my mind a lot of the issues with warlords. You're trading 2d6 guaranteed damage to grant a single attack from an ally, so, it's not overpowered. Because it keys off the warlord making attacks and hitting, you can up gun the effects slightly since they don't always work - you need to sneak attack, and hit.

Add in some more ribbon powers along the way, and that would make a decent warlord. Maybe at 5th level (or 6th) he gets a second weapon attack. Fair enough. I'd have to actually crunch it all out, but, it seems to me that this would be a better start. Variations of the subclass could focus on what actions are granted, perhaps bonuses to those actions, that sort of thing.

Rogue would make a good subclass to create a guerilla tactics style leader. I can't see the rogue doing justice for the whole warlord concept, but the rogue has a lot more mechanically to work with than the fighter. It's just the rogue lacks the wrong sort of flavor to really pull this together for all but the most specialized warlordy subclass.

 

[mellored]

But, what about rogues? I think the Mastermind as a proof of concept works rather well. Here's a class that actually not too bad for emulating a warlord. It's not there yet, but, it's certainly along the path. And, nicely enough, rogues come with a very handy dice pool built right in that can be used to power various warlord effects.

I though of something similar.
But, I'm liking both merls zone and elfcrusher's extra reactions ideas. And extra reactions stack too well with sneak attack. Since it's "per turn".


Still, a "underhanded fighter" rogue who trades sneak attack dice to trip, sand in the eyes, push, ect... on a hit, would be pretty fun on it's own.

 

[FrogReaver]

I wanted to give an example of a Warlord's Aid level 1 ability that's close to balanced.

You wait for the right moment, trying to time everything perfectly. Finally you attack with ferocity knowing that seeing and hearing you prevail in combat will inspire your allies.
Empowering Strike
Trigger: When you attack (before you see the attack roll)
Level 1 Effect: If you hit with your attack you may choose one ally who can see or hear you, that ally gains a 1d4 bonus to damage on his next attack.

Keep in mind the ability will increase in power again at level 5 and again at level 11.

The ability is balanced because it adds approximately .9 DPR (assuming 60% chance to hit). A d4 to damage feels more impactful than that but it get's gated behind 2 attack rolls, yours and an allies. We don't want it too impactful at level 1 as you will also have flexibility to use other maneuvers.

Warlord's Aid - Aid takes many forms. Sometimes it comes from an inspiring shout and an ally is urged to fight on after being hit. Sometimes it's sharing tactical brilliance that helps an ally knock an enemy prone. Sometimes it's your own bravery and fighting that inspires allies instead of your words. Other times it comes from an insightful understanding of your foes that enables you to alert your allies out of dangers way just in time. Whatever the sources for your ability to aid other's it's frequency and power is renowned amongst your friends.

Abilities granted by Warlord's Aid can be used once per round in combat. Aid abilities generally require a trigger and grant an effect. These abilities do not require any kind of action on your part. Warlord's Aid abilities improve at 5th and 11th level granting improved effectiveness to your already chosen maneuvers as well as opening up a few new ones.

I wanted to expand on this Warlord's Aid style of ability a little and the theory around how and why it will work.

Almost all the Warlord classes power will come by it's aids. Aid's will start with minor effects. At level 5 they will upgrade and start providing extra damage, extra attacks, and stronger buffs and debuffs. At level 11 they will upgrade again and provide even stronger effects.

This means the Warlord base class will not see extra attack. However, some level 5+ Aid's will feature him being able to make a second attack when he uses that particular Aid. Some may even feature an ally getting an extra attack. By removing extra attack and most other ways of scaling Warlord Damage we allow Warlord's Aid to empower some pretty strong effects while still being able to remain at will.

 

[SmokeyCriminal]

This is what I came up with. It's a Fighter sub-class and I tried to keep the complexity rock bottom, while adding as much flexibility as possible.

Ally Surge
Beginning on 3rd level, you can push your allies beyond their normal limits for a moment. An ally that can see and hear you on their turn can take one additional action when you spend your reaction.
Once you use this feature you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.


Ally Second Wind
Beginning at 3rd level, your allies have a limited well of stamina you can draw out to protect the from harm. As a free reaction a friendly creature that can see and hear you regains hit points equal to 1d10+your fighter level.
Once you use this feature you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.


Tactical Start
At 7th level, when initiative is rolled choose up to six friendly creatures (which can include yourself) that can see and hear you, their movement is doubled for the first round of combat.


At 7th level, you can treat Action Surge as if it were Ally Surge.


At 7th level, you can treat Second Wind as if it were Ally Second Wind.


Ally Indomitable
Beginning at 10th level, as a free reaction, if your ally can see and hear you they can reroll a Saving Throw that they failed, you must use the new roll and you must finish a long rest to regain this feature.


At 10th level you can treat Indomitable as if it were Ally Inodmitable


Relentless Leader
Starting at 15th level, when you roll for intiative and have no; Ally Surge remaining, you regain 1. Ally Second wind remaining, you regain 1. Ally Indomitable remaining, you regain 1.


Full Surge
Starting at 18th level, you bring out the full untapped potential from everyone around you. When you use Ally Surge it expands to include taking one additional reaction, and also if possible one additional Bonus Action on top of your regular ones.


I wanted to leverage actions surges huge flexibility to simulate buffs without it looking like the buffs you get from other characters.


Action, Cast a Spell = DPS
Dodge, Disengage, Hide = Defense buff
Dash = Extra movement
Grapple, Push, Trip, Grapple Escape, Object Interaction, Help = Utility/Tactics


So I'm shifting the tactic so that your no longer nickle and diming a hit here and a few steps there on your turn to shift the tide of battle in your favour. Now the tactic is to predict what your team mate needs when they are taking their turn and you empower them to achieve their goals. Stuff like;


Did the Rogue get grappled and now he has to decide between freeing himself or sneak attack? No! Ally Surge.


Did the Wizard drop a fireball on the baddies and you know all the archers will probably focus fire on him next round? Ally Surge to Dodge, Dash for cover, or Hide


Did the Barbarian wait two round to get his hands on the flying creature and now he has an opening but probably only for one round before he flying ut of reach again? Ally Surge and enjoy those extra swings Barb, you deserve them.


The only issue I have with it is that it doesn't synergies with Sneak Attack. But I think it's worth the sacrifice for the flexibility it can potentially offer, and the new way it encourages you to play tactics. Plus Action Surge is always a show stopper so it would be fun to hand them out like you were Oprah.


Ally Second Wind is interesting because your sorta sacrificing "Healing Power" for "Healing Flexibility." It's worded in a way that you can use it during your turn, your allies turn, or during enemies turn. Technically you could heal your wizard after the Owl bear gets into melee with him but before he attacks, or even in between attacks. I thought it would be an interesting trade-off and more tactical feeling then just healing on your turn a little bit. I was considering calling it "Brace Yourself" which is definitely something a leader would say right before they get wrecked.


Tactical Start was to give the warlord that tactical positioning vibe. but it trades the little strategic nudges in between turns for essentially 5 super dashes right at the start so that every one can be in their ideal positions. So your Paladin doesn't have to walk into the middle of the field and chuck a javelin and just wait there untill the enemies turn to reach him. And your Rogue is pretty much guaranteed to always reach that hiding spot without using his Dash. I don't know if it's better to have ideal positioning at the start of a fight versus in the middle of the fight, but this guarantees the first at least.


Turning your Surge and Wind into the Ally versions gives it that sacrificial leader vibe, and it doubles them. Plus it makes it so that when they increase it automatically increases the Ally versions. I thought it was a simple way to do it.


Ally Indomitable is straight forward but ill mention here that I deliberately didn't put a "within 30ft/60ft" restrictions on any of the features on purpose. I figured that the seeing and hearing would be enough, and I wanted the Warlord to be able to help the front line and back line without much issue.


Relentless Leader seemed like a nice safety net for high level play.


Full Surge is just me going over the top a little but I don't think its crazy. Battle Master has six d12 Superiority Dice and you have three Surges, and most characters have 2 attacks, so it evens out I think. Battle Master can get 6 Sneak attacks + 6d12. Warlord gets 6 attacks, or 3 spells, or 3 everything else. You lose in raw DPS but your flexibility is unequal. seems fair enough.


By level 10 you have


2 Ally Surges
2 Ally Second Wind
2 Indomitable


and 3 ASI to round out your Warlord however you see fit with Feats like Inspiring Leader, Skills, Healer, Martial Adept.


And if you want to sacrifice DPS for Warlord-y Stuff then don't do it with Extra Attack, do it with your ability scores. keep your STR at 14 and up ur CHA. Sacrificing +1 to Hit, and +1 to Damage, for +1 in Persuasion, Intimidate, Deception, and Performance. Seems like a Warlord thing to do. And instead of getting a tempting Combat Feat like GWM or SS remember your not a mere Fighter, your a Warlord.


I think between these Features and all the ASI/Feats and flexibility/Generic-ness of the Fighter you could get a decent Warlord.


It's just too bad that Sneak Attack doesn't work with him

 

[Hussar]

Rogue would make a good subclass to create a guerilla tactics style leader. I can't see the rogue doing justice for the whole warlord concept, but the rogue has a lot more mechanically to work with than the fighter. It's just the rogue lacks the wrong sort of flavor to really pull this together for all but the most specialized warlordy subclass.

Well, I'm not sure about that to be honest. The baseline rogue doesn't actually come with a whole lot of flavor IME. There's nothing about a rogue that screams "I'm a criminal". And, 3e certainly had all sorts of rogue variants that had nothing to do with being a "thief". Even in 2e, you had the Adventurer kit, the Investigator kit and Troubleshooter. So, it's not out of line, too much, to take the rogue class in a new direction.

And the rogue class just leaves so much room to expand into. Your Bravura subclass gains extra attack and armor proficiencies. Your Tactical subclass adds Int to checks and perhaps bonuses to initiative. The Inspiring subclass adds Cha to healing, perhaps actually doing full healing instead of granting temp HP, which all subclasses can do.

Now you've got your three baseline warlords that are all about skills and helping others do their thing. Very solid support class that would be welcome in any party. Unlike a fighter subclass that is 75% DPR with a side helping of support.