D&D 4E Let's Talk About 4E On Its Own Terms [+]

[Fifth Element]

- Teamplay was inspired by Football (soccer) thus the names of the 4 roles

Yes, my favourite 4E character was an arcane centre-back!

The roles were not inspired by football. They were already established in the gaming community.

Striker and defender are positions, while controlled and leader are qualities. A striker can be a great controller in football.

 

[Tigris]

Yes, my favourite 4E character was an arcane centre-back!

The roles were not inspired by football. They were already established in the gaming community.

Striker and defender are positions, while controlled and leader are qualities. A striker can be a great controller in football.

I did say "teamplay was inspired by football" and not "roles were inspired by football" right? (The names of the 4 roles come from football, because football was an inspiration to the core team).


Of course the 4 roles were established before its the "original 4 classes" of D&D (or trying to find their essense). Striker is the rogue, defender is the fighter, Leader is the Cleric and Controller the Wizard.

These 4 Roles existed before, but these 4 roles were differently flashed out / more emphasized in 4E to make them more distinct (focusing on the combat part.) and to allow more teamplay, since 4E did especially emphasize the teamplay aspect A LOT more.

 

[Fifth Element]

I did say "teamplay was inspired by football" and not "roles were inspired by football" right? (The names of the 4 roles come from football, because football was an inspiration to the core team).

The idea that 4E teamplay draws more inspiration from football than any other team sport is rather silly. If anything it's much more like baseball, due to the initiative order and turn-based actions.

 

[TwoSix]

I may be a bit late to the party, but I still thought I would like to add my thoughts on why I like D&D 4E:

1. It (still) feels like the most modern D&D implementation. Since it took inspiration from many other forms of games:

- The clear, precise and consistent wording was clearly taken from Magic the Gathering

- Teamplay was inspired by Football (soccer) thus the names of the 4 roles

- Layout for encounters are clever and on a single double page. Similar to what a lot of modern boardgames (after 4E) do. Like Stuffed Fable and similar games

- Lots of movement and forced movement and dangerous terrain fully embracing the grid like Final Fantasy Tactics and similar games

- Having the same class structure for all classes, to make it easier to learn other classes, like pretty much EVERY modern computer game like Mobas(league of legends), teambased shooters and others do (and later also RPGs like PbtA) as well as a lot of boardgames do.

- Having simplified statblocks with all attacks on them (no looking up spells) like boardgames do

- etc.

2. It improved A LOT over its initial run even though it was only 5 years. Yes not everything was perfect when it released, but wow did it improve and listen to the community ( bit too much even).

- Players did not like that monsters scaled over higher hit chances and defenses, so this was changed via new feats

- Since players felt there was a feat tax for the expertise feat, later expertise feats had a nice bonus for a weapon type

- Players did not like that monsters were now too weak (because of the feats) so Monster Math 3 fixed this problem

- Monsters in general were too defensive, so later monsters (MM3 and later) were in general more offensive designed

- In general monster design improved over time

- The game was released with no simple classes, later with the Essentials simpler classes were introduced-

- The first Essential book was (understandable) critized, and the later books did the simplified classes a lot better and had some really elegant designs.

- Similar (people who were not used to modern game design) did not like that all classes had the same layout and thought this makes them to similar, and from PHB3+and Essentials on several classes with different structures were released.

- The paladin and cleric were lacking cha powers, so the power source books made this better. Paladin also got more ways to protect allies, since he was lacking those

- The game was received as having "only combat", so LOTS of non combat/flavourfull parts were later released (Character Backgrounds, Character themes, Skill powers, martial rituals, more rituals, epic destinies with more non combat fluff, Essential classes with more non combat parts)

- In general lots of errata and fixes to make the game a smoother experience, because they cared so much about balance

- Skill challenges were in DMG 1 unclear and tooo hard (the way people played), so the math was changed and then the DMG2 made lots of examples and made them clearer on how to use.

- The first released adventures really sucked, while there were some gems among the later released adventures. (Greymore abby, Slaying stone, dungeon masters kit and others)

- Later rules were added for GMs/players who would prefer to play with phewer items.




3. It just has a lot of really good content. Of course there is also some filler stuff and some weak feats and powers, but it also has really a lot of great content and not only for classes but also for monsters, magic, traps, settings etc.

- It has 4 well made and quite varied (from each other) settings. (Nentir Vale, Forgotten Realms (Including a fleshed out Neverwinter), Eberon, Dark Sun).

- It has around 40 different classes with different powers. From simple to complex and with different flavours and power sources.

- It has around 40 races all with their own special ability (although feat support was uneven).

- It has 100+ themes

- 100+ epic destinies

- 100s of paragon paths

- Some really flavourfull books like Heroes of the Feywild

- An interesting adventure hub with Hammerfast

- A book with 30+ mini dungeons etc.

- 2 REALLY GOOD DMGs which are better than the 5E DMG even for 5E...


4. It has just really good and elegant math, and well working balance. Pathfinder 2E uses the base math system (just with a factor 2). This together with lots of other features (monster roles, traps/dangerous terrain with xp value etc.) makes it easy for GMs to build encounters:

- Monsters were balanced enough, that its enough to look at their level and their monster role to choose them, you dont have to double check if they are not too strong or weak for their CR

- A "normal" encounter is really easy to build. For ever level X player you add 1 level X normal monster. Done (So easy per player scaling)

- A hard fight would be just 25% more monster and a deadly fight 50% more

- Simple rules to replace monsters. 2 Normal monsters = 1 elite, 5 normal monster = 1 solo, 4 minions = 1 normal monster

- Really simple rules to use higher or lower level enemies: 2 Level X Monster = 1 Level X+4 monster. 3 Level X monster = 2 level X+2 monster. 5 Level X monster = 4 Level X+1 monster

- Traps and Dangerous terrain have XP and can just replace monsters with roughly the same xp value. Also simple rule (on Page 42) to build traps (damage per level etc.)

- Monsters have different roles, to easily know how they play. This makes it easy without much research to make different feeling encounters just by using different level adequate monster types.

- Really simple rules for non combat XP. (A long skill challenge is equal to a same level combat encounter. A normal group quest as well. 4 Personal quests as well)

5. There were just so many good ideas, which inspired many other games, and can still be used as inspiration!

- Skill challenges are still used and also inspired the Clocks of Forged in the Dark

- The hybrid class system is used in 13th age as its multi class system

- The normal "weak" multiclassing is used as the Archetype system in Patfhinder 2

- The base combat math and encounter building (with small tweek/ factor 2) is used in Pathfinder 2E

- The skill powers are used in Pathfinder 2 as skill feats

- The 5E background unique abilities, are quite similar to the later non combat powers of classes (especially the bard)

- The combat system inspired many modern games (and still does) like: Gloomhaven, 13th age, Strike!, Icon, Lancer, Gubat Banwa, Pathfinder 2, the new MCDM RPG etc.

- The epic destinies are great inspiration for endgame goals of players!

- The character themes are great inspirations for backgrounds. And include some really cool mechanics.

- The Essential Ranger and Sorcerer are great examples on how to make simple characters still interesting while being elegant. (I know many people did not like Essentials (most likely because of the first book), but the Scout Ranger is a really elegant "bring down to the essential" version of the multi attack ranger, with great nature flavour, the Hunter Ranger is an interesting archer ranger, which does more than just damage (namely providing support and controlling the battlefield, like Hawk Eye in the avenger movie) and the Elementalist Sorcerer shows that you can make a good simplified caster, something 5E and lots of other games never managed)

- The many unique solo monsters are good inspiration for boss fights, and even though also them did not work perfectly, they are still miles ahead of most other games solo encounters

Fantastic post.

 

[Undrave]

4. It has just really good and elegant math, and well working balance. Pathfinder 2E uses the base math system (just with a factor 2). This together with lots of other features (monster roles, traps/dangerous terrain with xp value etc.) makes it easy for GMs to build encounters:

- Monsters were balanced enough, that its enough to look at their level and their monster role to choose them, you dont have to double check if they are not too strong or weak for their CR

- A "normal" encounter is really easy to build. For ever level X player you add 1 level X normal monster. Done (So easy per player scaling)

- A hard fight would be just 25% more monster and a deadly fight 50% more

- Simple rules to replace monsters. 2 Normal monsters = 1 elite, 5 normal monster = 1 solo, 4 minions = 1 normal monster

- Really simple rules to use higher or lower level enemies: 2 Level X Monster = 1 Level X+4 monster. 3 Level X monster = 2 level X+2 monster. 5 Level X monster = 4 Level X+1 monster

- Traps and Dangerous terrain have XP and can just replace monsters with roughly the same xp value. Also simple rule (on Page 42) to build traps (damage per level etc.)

- Monsters have different roles, to easily know how they play. This makes it easy without much research to make different feeling encounters just by using different level adequate monster types.

- Really simple rules for non combat XP. (A long skill challenge is equal to a same level combat encounter. A normal group quest as well. 4 Personal quests as well)

4e Monsters have yet to be matched

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

4e Monsters have yet to be matched

So true, MM3/MV have totally the best monsters ever.

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

So true, MM3/MV have totally the best monsters ever.

Let's not leave out Nentir Vale while we're at it, that one's gold standard as well. Some pretty good ones in the various Planes books, although they're not the emphasis there.

Outside of D&D proper 13th Age's two monster books are also pretty fantastic in much the same way, but since 13A is very close to being 4.5E and has some of the same design team that's hardly surprising.

 

[Retreater]

Several months ago, I started running 4e for a group of players who largely entered the hobby with 5e. So my perspective is much fresher than it was from my previous 4e game (5+ years ago).
I haven't had the chance to read through this thread, but I'll just put in a few quick notes before I can elaborate:

• I love the online tools and character builder I found through the Discord.
• Encounter building works. My players told me it's the first system we've played where the challenges are thrilling and fair.
• I don't like feeling it's necessary to plug the character sheets into a program and print new sheets every level. I wish I wasn't so dependent on technology.
• The organization of the power cards is essential for this group.
• Some players have a hard time wrapping their heads around how powers work. ("Why can't these just be spells?")
• Can't really go "Nova" if things go bad. Healing is largely limited as Encounter (not Daily) resources. You can't really go "all in."
• Magic items aren't especially cool.
• Combats aren't as long as some complain they are (granted, we're 3rd level, but we have 6 players).
• Wish more of it was POD (esp Madness at Gardmore Abbey - though maybe I can reconstruct a boxed set myself with a Deck of Many Things)
• We just wrapped up a fantastic dungeon crawl I wrote. The first time a player actually felt compelled to map on graph paper - and everyone was on the edge of their seats to see how it fit together. Literally as exciting as any combat encounter.
• I wish there was a "re-roll" use for an Action Point. I have a player who notoriously never connects with Encounter or Daily Powers.

 

[James Gasik]

Several months ago, I started running 4e for a group of players who largely entered the hobby with 5e. So my perspective is much fresher than it was from my previous 4e game (5+ years ago).
I haven't had the chance to read through this thread, but I'll just put in a few quick notes before I can elaborate:
I love the online tools and character builder I found through the Discord.
Encounter building works. My players told me it's the first system we've played where the challenges are thrilling and fair.
I don't like feeling it's necessary to plug the character sheets into a program and print new sheets every level. I wish I wasn't so dependent on technology.
The organization of the power cards is essential for this group.
Some players have a hard time wrapping their heads around how powers work. ("Why can't these just be spells?")
Can't really go "Nova" if things go bad. Healing is largely limited as Encounter (not Daily) resources. You can't really go "all in."
Magic items aren't especially cool.
Combats aren't as long as some complain they are (granted, we're 3rd level, but we have 6 players).
Wish more of it was POD (esp Madness at Gardmore Abbey - though maybe I can reconstruct a boxed set myself with a Deck of Many Things)
We just wrapped up a fantastic dungeon crawl I wrote. The first time a player actually felt compared to map on graph paper - and everyone was on the edge of their seats to see how it fit together. Literally as exciting as any combat encounter.
I wish there was a "re-roll" use for an Action Point. I have a player who notoriously never connects with Encounter or Daily Powers.

One thing to consider is party composition- tossing in a Warlord, for example can make spending Action Points a lot more fun- heck, even the multiclass Feat for the Bravura Warlord can be an incredible boon for your group (adding +4 to hit whenever you spend an Action Point).

if they're really unlucky, consider letting them find some Dice of Auspicious Fortune. There really are fun magic items in 4e, unfortunately, they don't tend to be the ones that add bonuses to attack or defenses, so a lot of players seem to avoid them. I got a lot of mileage out of my Dimensional Knife and Ghost-Grinding Powder back when I played.

As for "going Nova", that's really what the Daily Powers are for. Most fights shouldn't require them, and their effects on an encounter can be dramatic- just take a gander at the Warlord Daily "Stand the Fallen" as a good example of what I mean.

I'm not sure what you mean by healing- does your group often find themselves needing more healing than the 2 minor action heals their leader can provide? I had a friend who played a Pacifist build Cleric and he had tons of extra heals with utility powers and dailies, to the point that in late Paragon, our Striker got dominated and forced to attack him, and nothing the character could do was able to outpace the Cleric's healing.

One mistake I saw a lot of 4e players make is fail to make use of their Second Wind when in a pinch, expecting their leader to be a Healbot. I know people want to keep attacking every round, but the party Defender should be the first priority for healing if they're managing to keep the most deadly enemies Marked. OTOH, if enemies aren't going to respect the Defender's marks (due to there being a lot of them, or the Defender's punishment is weak), the party's Controller will be required to lock enemies down.

Most characters can get access to forced movement, slow, or daze effects, even Strikers, and these can do a lot towards keeping ranged characters out of trouble. I had a Ranger who took a Feat that slowed an enemy when hit, and another feat that also knocked slowed enemies prone when I hit them. Combined even with Double Strike, this could keep a non-ranged enemy from doing much of anything (and later, I convinced the other ranged characters to invest in a feat that lets you ignore the penalty for shooting at a prone target, and get a little damage bonus on prone targets as well).

 

[Retreater]

One thing to consider is party composition- tossing in a Warlord, for example can make spending Action Points a lot more fun- heck, even the multiclass Feat for the Bravura Warlord can be an incredible boon for your group (adding +4 to hit whenever you spend an Action Point).

Warlord was a hard pass for everyone in this group. I had to tempt the most veteran player at the table to play a cleric with cookies.
They aren't big on buffing allies or healing - regardless of the system. They don't think it's fun.

I'm not sure what you mean by healing- does your group often find themselves needing more healing than the 2 minor action heals their leader can provide? I had a friend who played a Pacifist build Cleric and he had tons of extra heals with utility powers and dailies, to the point that in late Paragon, our Striker got dominated and forced to attack him, and nothing the character could do was able to outpace the Cleric's healing.

They have at least two leaders (though, admittedly, the one playing an Ardent never heals anyone but herself.) When he's home from college, the cleric player's son sometimes joins us as a bard. The group burns through all available healing - whether it's from the leader powers or second winds.
Part of the issue is that they are usually without a defender - who is the least reliable player in the group. The strikers are frontline and take so much damage. Then the leaders also play like frontline warriors. The only one who stays in the back is the wizard.

As for "going Nova", that's really what the Daily Powers are for. Most fights shouldn't require them, and their effects on an encounter can be dramatic- just take a gander at the Warlord Daily "Stand the Fallen" as a good example of what I mean.

The daily powers aren't "nova enough" for my group. Nearly every fight we have someone down and dying, who misses a good portion of the combat. They need to strategize better - or if they can't do that - they need more healing access. Like, maybe a power like "Third Wind" that lets them spending two healing surges for the effects of one or make an Endurance check to spend one. I don't know.
The fights are well-balanced and challenging - but I think they're also frustrating a lot of the time because half the group spending it prone and dying.