D&D 5E Let's talk power words!

[Nagol]

The reason I dislike the Power Word series is the HP thresholds have barely changed since 1e even though the expected hp totals of PCs and opponents has seen tremendous inflation.

In 1e, a 17th level Magic-user with Power Word: Kill would instantly slay all but the largest/oldest dragons at full health with its 60 hp cap. Only a few of the most powerful creatures could withstand the spell even at full hit points. It was a near-instant potent effect.

The comparative value of the series has decreased both the reduction in consequence of casting time and the hp inflation -- particularly since high hp is the main design consideration for high-level creature design.

The spells goes from "will instantly slay all the but largest ancient black dragon" (they top out a 64 hp at maximum hit dice and age) in 1e to killing a typical black dragon once the other half of its hp are removed in 5e.

 

[Satyrn]

2. Lore Bard with Counterspell

For one 3e group I DMed, SOP became "fear the party fighter getting charmed." It had only happened once, I believe, when a succubus dominated him, but that was the closest they've ever been to TPK.

Many levels later, when I was ready to put the game on hiatus, I had planned on having a PC showdown by having a quartet of succubi dominate the party into fighting each other in an arena for their amusement. Well, the cleric was prepared. He was able to thwart their attempt entirely - by countering the spell in one case, by buffing a PC's save on another, and by breaking the enchantment after the fact, along with simply making his own save. It was an awesome moment as he just kept pulling out these tricks.


I hope your adventurers' SOP work out just as fun for you, that your Lore Bard gets to counterspell that Power Word Kill and save the day.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The spells goes from "will instantly slay all the but largest ancient black dragon" (they top out a 64 hp at maximum hit dice and age) in 1e to killing a typical black dragon once the other half of its hp are removed in 5e.

That's not entirely at the fault of the HP threshold not changing as much as the typical HP of a high-level threat over the editions. To a point, it is, yes, such as that the threshold was raised to 100 in 3.5 (a 66% increase to the AD&D threshold) when high-level hit points were actually often close to double their equivalent AD&D values, if not more.

But with 5th edition spell effects were re-built not to match the prior edition potency, but to specifically hit a desired potency for 5th edition and its intended playstyle - in which a spell that had as potent an effect as the AD&D power word kill did in AD&D (as you say, instant death of nearly any enemy) is entirely inappropriate for even the highest level of spells. So the effect was intentionally reduced from being an "instant death for nearly anything" to being an "option to make a fight you are already winning end a round or two sooner."

It's how all of the formerly "win button" spells have been treated with their 5th edition re-designs, at all levels of play (though some are less harshly judged for it than the power word spells, primarily because they aren't the highest levels of spells in the game and thus don't have as grand of expectations to live up to)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Neither of those things are actually guaranteed "SOP" for any adventuring party. Nor do I have to be literally correct in every single possible circumstance to be correct in the specific circumstance that I outlined.

A paladin, a third level spell slot, and the revivify spell are all variables - not constants.
You must have missed the part where I mentioned I play with full-transparency so that there is no such thing as an instance of "I cast power word kill", on either DM or Player side of the game, in which the target of the spell doesn't currently have 100 or fewer hit points.

Does that mean the spell can be less useful in someone else's game than it is in mine? Sure - but that's because of their choice in how to run the game, not the text of the spell effect.

You're correct that they don't have to be SOP. Obviously there's no particular reason why your adventuring party has to adopt my recommended SOP. But, I really do strongly recommend that you pre-cast Aid and Death Ward before going into any kind of tricky situation (invading Acererak's tomb, attacking Orcus, etc.). There's no concentration requirement to either, and they can save your bacon in any number of scenarios. Death Ward, for example, is the difference between having to panic when you're down to 30 HP against an ancient Red Dragon, vs. getting to cooly and calmly fire off another round of spells because you know that his breath weapon cannot insta-kill you yet.

So, I apologize if you took my post as criticism of you. Consider it a policy recommendation instead, which just happens to work against Power Word: Kill as well as a whole range of other nasty situations.

 

[Nagol]

That's not entirely at the fault of the HP threshold not changing as much as the typical HP of a high-level threat over the editions. To a point, it is, yes, such as that the threshold was raised to 100 in 3.5 (a 66% increase to the AD&D threshold) when high-level hit points were actually often close to double their equivalent AD&D values, if not more.

But with 5th edition spell effects were re-built not to match the prior edition potency, but to specifically hit a desired potency for 5th edition and its intended playstyle - in which a spell that had as potent an effect as the AD&D power word kill did in AD&D (as you say, instant death of nearly any enemy) is entirely inappropriate for even the highest level of spells. So the effect was intentionally reduced from being an "instant death for nearly anything" to being an "option to make a fight you are already winning end a round or two sooner."

It's how all of the formerly "win button" spells have been treated with their 5th edition re-designs, at all levels of play (though some are less harshly judged for it than the power word spells, primarily because they aren't the highest levels of spells in the game and thus don't have as grand of expectations to live up to)

Perhaps, but I'll note the hp thresholds in 3e were the same as adopted by 5e with at least as much hp inflation compared to previous editions.

I'll also point out Power Word Kill is not the top end of damage for the spell level -- that would go to Meteor Swarm with 140 hp expected damage which also has the further advantages of partial effect (hp lost even if target(s) don't die), multiple large areas of effect, and extreme range. It does suffer from having a normal save, (but the secondary damage is 70% of PWK's maximal effect split over two damage types to reduce the effectiveness of resistance) and the large areas of effect can be undesirable. Meteor Swarm was substantially improved in comparison to previous editions.

PWK compares poorly with 100 hp as an all-or-nothing with an odd way to save (having sufficient hp negates the attack), moderate combat range, and single target. It does have effectively untyped damage so no resistance applies if the hp test is successful.

All in all a less than stellar comparison if you want to remove opponents unless you specifically require no collateral damage. For that situation a high-level Disintegrate is probably a better choice since it deals 19d6 + 40 damage, save for half (expected damage of 107.5), provides a partial effect, and has more secondary uses.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...I really do strongly recommend that you pre-cast Aid and Death Ward before going into any kind of tricky situation...

That recommendation presupposes a party composition that contains the relatively limited set of character classes that can cast those spells, since they're only normally on the cleric and paladin spell lists.

I don't think making assumptions of party composition such as that is helpful when considering topics like whether or not a particular spell is worth casting, unless they are prefaced not by assumption/recommendation of "standard procedure" but by a conditional "if you have [blank]".

I certainly agree, however; if your party has nothing standing between them and having aid and death ward but a few spent spell slots, it is smart to put high priority on spending those spell slots.

...I apologize if you took my post as criticism of you.

No apology needed. I didn't take any offense, just didn't agree with the conclusions you made for the mentioned reasons.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That recommendation presupposes a party composition that contains the relatively limited set of character classes that can cast those spells, since they're only normally on the cleric and paladin spell lists.

I value Death Ward highly enough to choose it as a Lore Bard's Magical Secret, too. It's that good.

We're pretty off-topic at this point so I'll drop it; the main thing is that I wanted the countermeasures to PWK to be on the record, since it's relevant for e.g. parties who are thinking about playing Out of the Abyss and tackling Orcus.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I value Death Ward highly enough to choose it as a Lore Bard's Magical Secret, too. It's that good.

It is that good, I agree.

I just don't agree that it is so good as to have every party ever put together contain a bard, cleric, or paladin in order to facilitate access to it and aid (or any other number of spells that might only be possible because of one of those classes).

 

[SkidAce]

Necro for research.


So I am creating an ancient tattoo that melds onto the character's forehead (the sigil of a dagger).

It is supposed to be a divinely sponsored plot device, once activated it slays your foe and you also die.

So I thought "Well power word kill could be a good template, its 9th level."

Then I went to the roll20 monster list and sorted by hp...okay wont work on tarrasque, cool...won't work on ancient dragons...cool.

And I kept going down and down.

And I notice it wont kill a CR5 gladiator. Power Word Kill, 9th level spell...huh..

------------------------------

Now in my world, 90% of all humans and beasts are "normal" or "non-classed". So a crossbow bolt is deadly and can kill most people.

But this change in the spell effectiveness blew my mind.

I think I may change the hp limit to 200.

 

[lall]

My bard passes on those, but takes Power Word Heal.