"Levelless" d20?

kengar

First Post
I had seen this mentioned on the WOTC board but never heard of it before. Is this from someone's House Rules or is it an actual Rules Variant? Sounds interesting.
 

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Psion

Adventurer
I've seen a PDF called dliberation20 which was pretty tepid and over complicated.

Mutants & Masterminds is almost levelless d20... but I wouldn't play the "truly levelless" variant.
 


kengar

First Post
BiggusGeekus@Work said:
I dunno. When you're modifing the rules that much, I'd suggest just looking at a new game like RuneQuest or Pendragon.

That's more or less what I was thinking, but the reference I read got me curious.
 

Judas

First Post
There's a d20 game out there, Mutants & Masterminds. Classless, leveless, No alignments, no hit dice, and use no other dice than the D20. Looks pretty good as I perused the book a few times.

Here's a quick snip of an interview about the game:
So in Mutants & Masterminds instead of rolling X dice of damage, each attack has a "damage bonus" that the target of the attack makes a saving throw against. The result of the saving throw determines what kind of damage they take: a successful save means no damage, while a failed save means they're hurt. How much depends on how badly they failed the saving throw. A really low save (or a really high damage bonus) can result in an instant knockout.

An added benefit is that you only need a single d20 to play Mutants & Masterminds because everything, from attack and damage rolls to skill and power checks, uses the same basic system.
grr2001_450.jpg
 
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nHammer

First Post
The cover has "Worlds Greatest Superhero RPG" on the cover?...Somebody thinks highly of themselves:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Actually, I think it's more of a nod to Fantastic Four...but still..:D ;)
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I know of a pretty good .pdf file on converting d20 Modern to be a classless, level-less system. If anyone is interested, here is the contact info to get it (for free of course):

"Anyone who is interested in getting a copy of my point-based classless system can drop me a line at ialdabaoth@cableone.net and I will send you a copy. It is still essentially a beta version, but is quite complete and probably won't change much before the 1.0, except for added material.

Feedback on the system is very much appreciated.

-Leroy Van Camp III"
 

Voneth

First Post
nHammer said:
The cover has "Worlds Greatest Superhero RPG" on the cover?...Somebody thinks highly of themselves:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Actually, I think it's more of a nod to Fantastic Four...but still..:D ;)

From the review of the game at gamewyrd.com

"The World’s Greatest Superhero RPG!" – so announces the front of Green Ronin’s Mutants & Masterminds.

Brave words.

.......

"The World’s Greatest Superhero RPG!" – that’s what it says on the front cover. The front cover is probably right.
 

Malacoda

First Post
BiggusGeekus@Work said:
I dunno. When you're modifing the rules that much, I'd suggest just looking at a new game like RuneQuest or Pendragon.
If you mean D&D, I would agree. If you mean d20 Modern, I would disagree. D20 Modern lends itself well to classless, and going leveless isn't that much of a step. The characters in Modern are standardized enough that figuring out a balance between them isn't too hard.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Malacoda said:

If you mean D&D, I would agree. If you mean d20 Modern, I would disagree. D20 Modern lends itself well to classless, and going leveless isn't that much of a step. The characters in Modern are standardized enough that figuring out a balance between them isn't too hard.

And this, coming from the guy who already worked out a classless level-less system for d20 Modern :)
 

Malacoda

First Post
Mistwell said:

And this, coming from the guy who already worked out a classless level-less system for d20 Modern :)

Yeah, so they are words of wisdom, right? :D

Or not. I will have to run a campaign using those rules before I'll know. Sure looks spiffy on paper, though.
 
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Razuur

First Post
Here is what we use for the levelless system in out group and it woorks really well.

+1 to Skill = 250 exp (you can only go up 1 rank at a time in a skill)

+ 1 to Class Ability (next one on your ability chain) = 2000 exp

+1 to Attribute = 8000 exp

+ to hit die = 2000 exp

New Feat = 6000 exp

Join new class = 10,000 exp (and then no further penalty)

We have found this works really well for us. Basically we did some math and averaged out the leveling process so that going up each level was the same. Averaged out the benfits for these and tried to figure how much it would cost if each level paid for part of say - your new attribute.

Of course you have to have players who aren't going to min/max and of course you need to have the GM approve all expenditures, but it works pretty slick. The only thing we really lose is the CR system - and we are big on RPing anyway. I give flat XP with bonuses for good RPing at the end of a session.

Let me know what you think. If you like it, use it. If you don't don't. It is free for the usage by anyone.

Razuur
 

kengar

First Post
Razuur said:
Here is what we use for the levelless system in out group and it woorks really well.

+1 to Skill = 250 exp (you can only go up 1 rank at a time in a skill)

+ 1 to Class Ability (next one on your ability chain) = 2000 exp

+1 to Attribute = 8000 exp

+ to hit die = 2000 exp

New Feat = 6000 exp

Join new class = 10,000 exp (and then no further penalty)

We have found this works really well for us. Basically we did some math and averaged out the leveling process so that going up each level was the same. Averaged out the benfits for these and tried to figure how much it would cost if each level paid for part of say - your new attribute.

Of course you have to have players who aren't going to min/max and of course you need to have the GM approve all expenditures, but it works pretty slick. The only thing we really lose is the CR system - and we are big on RPing anyway. I give flat XP with bonuses for good RPing at the end of a session.

Let me know what you think. If you like it, use it. If you don't don't. It is free for the usage by anyone.

Razuur


I wonder how that would work for classless? Maybe ignore the class ability cost and just stick to Feats w/Prereqs?
 

Razuur

First Post
Ooops I forgot...


250 points for a +1 to a class skill, and 400 points for a non-class skill.

We thought about claseless, but frankly, with all of the multitude of classes available out there to use, we opted to keep them. As more supplements come out, the more classes seem to bve availalable, and that is not even counting the thousands of prestige classes out there.

For a fantasy environ, we opted to keep classes.

For a modern or futuristic setting, you could use the same rules using the CoC system generation, or the D20 modern. Those are both two takes on a modern generation system, and both have their merits and flaws.

y'know. I like the idea of some "template" to build on. Mostly because it inspires ideals. But some people don't. You could probably combine D20 modern and D20 CoC and get either class or classless. Take the ideas above, adjust to your tastes and walaa, you have levelless, and classless. Then you just need to figure out how to gauge challenges and experience.

Razuur.

And BTW - Mutants and Masterminds IS all that and a bag of chips...
 
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kengar

First Post
OK, here's something I sorta threw together yesterday after reading some other people's ideas. I also "borrowed" a couple ideas from some otehr games. Bear in mind this was thought up for a lower-magic/lower-power Warhammer-style campaign, not D&D. Here goes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1000xp = 5 Character Points (CP). The full 1000 must be earned to get any CP, no partial awards.
All 5 CP must be spent before next awarding. Cannot be "held over." Unused CP will be lost.

HP gained via raising CON or taking the "Toughness" feat (+3 hp)
Modified Toughness Feat: +2hp. Can be stacked. Maximum HP = 2 x CON.

[Note: Massive Damage Rule. CON+ in damage from one attack, DC15 Fort Save or fall to -1 HP.]

Feats: 3 CP each (and all prerequisites met)

Raising Scores: 5CP/pt. Maximum score = starting score +6 or 18, whichever is lower.

Skills: 1CP per rank for Core Skills, 2CP per rank for non-Core skills. Each skill can only be raised one rank at a time (post-character generation).

Spells:
Spell Level Cost
0th Level: 2CP
1st Level: 3CP
2nd Level: 4CP
3rd Level: 5CP

Ability to cast a given level spell is a Feat ("Cast 1st Level Spells", etc.)

BAB: 4CP/+1
Special: 2CP for Weapon Focus Feat, can be stacked on same weapon up to 2x BAB.

Defense Bonus: 3CP = +1 to AC (max. +5). (Luck bonus to AC for stacking purposes)

Saves: Save1 is primary Save (i.e. Reflex for Rogue/Thieves. Save2 is secondary, Save3 is tertiary, etc.)

Maximum Save bonus = 1/2 Base Score (i.e. Max. Reflex bonus = 1/2 DEX)
Save1: 2CP/+1
Save2: 3CP/+1
Save3: 4CP/+1

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now, this is somewhat tailored to the kind of game I'm looking at running, but a less "gritty" version could be adapted from the ideas above. Also. XP awards would be more "story" based and less CR/Combat based in this game.
 


V_Shane

First Post
Leveless d20? I think that would be Gary Gygax's original "Mythus Legendary Journeys". I played that system for about 2 years, first game I ever ran where everyone had a calculater next to them during combat.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Here is what I'm thinking of for classless, leveless d20.

At character creation, pick 8 skills. These are your class skills.

You get 16 + (4x int bonus) skill points to distribute among the skills. No single skill can be raised higher than 4 ranks at first level.

Base attack bonus is a skill. Your BAB = ranks - 3.

Fort, Ref, and Will are skills.

HP = 1/2(Con + BAB).

Spells are individual skills (or just 1 single skill, depending on the level of magic in your game). The DC to cast is 10 + Spell Level + (1/2 spell level). Save DCs are at the skill check for the spell.

Advancement: Typically, you will get 5 to 7 character points after each adventure. You can assign these to skills that you have used in the past adventure or those that you have trained in. You can only increase each skill by one rank after each adventure.

The cost to advance a skill is the skill's current level in skill points. Increasing a skill from 4 ranks to 5 ranks will cost 5 points.

Feats cost 4 skill points for the first one, 5 for the next, 6 for the next, etc. (This I'm not sure about yet.)

All PCs gain the feat "Combatant" at first level (or, it is at their option to take it). This doubles their HP (so that HP = Con + BAB).

Skill Mastery (as per the Rogue ability) is available at all levels for any skill with at least 4 ranks. (So that casters can take 10 all the time.) Optionally, Combat Casting also allows casters to Take 10 on any spell skill check.



This isn't D&D, but it is d20.
 

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