D&D (2024) Limiting Short Rests to 2x/day

[Scott Christian]

They're certainly not common, the impetus to rest is extreme, especially at low levels.

My first 4e group actually pulled a 8 encounter day, in the freak'n Keep on the Shadowfell, which got brutal. Action Points from milestones got us through it. Pre-E, Action Points, Item Dailies, and, at paragon, items that unlocked better dailies if you hit a milestone, all mitigated against that impetus to rest prematurely. But that only went so far - I've run plenty of longer days, for various reasons, but usually with some story element precluding rests. What really helped 4e hold together with shorter days was class balance, that and short rests (hey, original topic) after every encounter meant that, while they're was still an attrition game going on, it didn't readily turn into a death spiral.

Any other edition, yes, if you could possibly get spells back, you did, because it was just foolish not to. They're far too powerful/important a resource to ignore.

1e AD&D also tended towards shorter days. At low level, in particular, you could only handle so many fights before you ran out of spells and hp, and someone was going to die - or worse, drop to 'deaths door' and take a week to recover (new characters were instantaneous!)

I think the "short rest problem" that 5e was trying to 'fix' (the problem being that you were pretty likely to start every encounter at full hp, rather than start death-spiraling) was actually introduced by 3.0 and the infamous Wand of Cure Light Wounds. I also don't think it was a problem, at all, in the pacing or challenge sense. The real problem was that 3e Clerics were given a lot of spells/day with the expectation they'd be diverted to healing, and with the WoCLW tactic, they weren't, which awakened CoDzilla like an above-ground nuclear test.

There are no short days or long days regarding balance. It is all a DM creation. They have control, and that control is dictated by story - not class balance.

 

[Scott Christian]

What exactly was the problem?

Clearly, it wasn't a problem of quick short rest recovery being too powerful since one of the biggest complaints about 4e was that combats took too long because PCs didn't deal enough damage. If 5 minute recovery of powers wasn't too powerful, what exactly was the 1 hour short rest supposed to fix?

This is like saying what was the problem with 1 hour rests? There isn't any. Just like there is no problem with 5-minute rests. The reason is because they don't matter. They are purely utilizations the DM can use to help tell a story. It's like arguing why a fire-based wizard doesn't shine in combat underwater.

 

[Tony Vargas]

There are no short days or long days regarding balance. It is all a DM creation. They have control, and that control is dictated by story - not class balance.

That would mean that day length cannot be used to balance classes, at all.
The only sort of D&D-like design that could survive that would be 13A, with it's re-charges based solely on number of encounters, or, y'know, something unimaginable, like, IDK a game where each class got the same quantity & power of daily resources...

 

[Vaalingrade]

This is like saying what was the problem with 1 hour rests? There isn't any. Just like there is no problem with 5-minute rests. The reason is because they don't matter. They are purely utilizations the DM can use to help tell a story. It's like arguing why a fire-based wizard doesn't shine in combat underwater.

Is this one of those 'there's nothing wrong with the rules because the DM is an unpaid game designer' deal?

 

[Emberashh]

I have no problem with long rests, to me they make perfect sense. It’s short rests that need to go.

Not sure how potions replacing rests is helping there, but you were creating a whole subsystem around that with some questionable decisions if I remember correctly. I do not need a whole subsystem to take care of what long rests already do

Potions in general remove the negotiation excrement of having to beg the DM to get resources back, or hope they follow whatever cruddy framework 5e intends to be followed for it.

Negotiation is not fun gameplay and its at the heart of a lot of whats wrong with DND.

And meanwhile, potions are also valuable because they can serve as a basis for more meaningful content and mechanics.

Rests don't do squat for either.

 

[Emberashh]

Is this one of those 'there's nothing wrong with the rules because the DM is an unpaid game designer' deal?

Its more that the timegating is entirely irrelevant mechanically and just causes a lot of narrative dissonance.

That GMs can freely adjust the timining and not affect anything mechanically both shows the issue isn't really an enigma as much as the topic is treating it, and that its just bad design all around.

 

[mamba]

Potions in general remove the negotiation excrement of having to beg the DM to get resources back, or hope they follow whatever cruddy framework 5e intends to be followed for it.

yeah, and you replace negotiations over rests with negotiations over finding potion ingredients, and add the issue that the ingredients should not exist in all kinds of climates in the first place, except that now they need to, in order to not break the potion recovery system

Negotiation is not fun gameplay and its at the heart of a lot of whats wrong with DND.

if this is about D&D should be narrative, so the DM is reigned in, I disagree, not interested. If it is purely about 'can I rest here' you have not solved anything, because now you have 'do I find any potions or ingredients here' in its place

And meanwhile, potions are also valuable because they can serve as a basis for more meaningful content and mechanics.

yeah, still not interested, sorry. I am not playing Farmville, the TTRPG. If you want to, knock yourself out, but do not expect it to be a replacement for long rests for me

 

[Emberashh]

yeah, and you replace negotiations over rests with negotiations over finding potion ingredients, and add the issue that the ingredients should not exist in all kinds of climates in the first place, except that now they need to, in order to not break the potion recovery system

Is this something you believe my system, or any system that takes the idea of using potions for this seriously, wouldn't address this entirely asserted problem that you're not actually observing anywhere other than in your own distrust for new ideas?

yeah, still not interested, sorry. I am not playing Farmville, the TTRPG.

???

Non-sequitur. Fyi, but it is in fact okay to just disagree and leave it at that. Pulling made up nonsense out of thin air so you can emphasize how much you dislike something different through strawmen is just petty.

 

[mamba]

Is this something you believe my system, or any system that takes the idea of using potions for this seriously, wouldn't address this entirely asserted problem that you're not actually observing anywhere other than in your own distrust for new ideas?

just because I do not like one new idea does not mean I distrust all new ideas. You are 'fixing' a problem I do not have with something I have no interest in and find much worse / overbearing. It's as simple as that.

Fyi, but it is in fact okay to just disagree and leave it at that.

yes it is, but you dragged this here, not me

The more I see topics like this just go on endlessly the more Im reminded of the sheer vitriol I got for saying this whole rest thing is garbage design and should just be dropped.

and then went on to tout your system. Don't complain about people not liking your system and expect to not hear anything back

 

[Emberashh]

It's as simple as that.

You say that despite continuing to argue.

yes it is, but you dragged this here, not me

Because I actually have interest in talking about these things.

You're not obligated to reply back, and you definitely weren't obligated to respond to me in the first place, so lets not act Im the one intruding on your personal space.

You're the one responding to me when you clearly don't want to.

and then went on to tout your system

Yes, pointing at something to illustrate what Im talking about is pretty important for communicating the ideas in question, and as it happens my own system is in an ideal spot to illustrate my ideas in practice because...it is my ideas in practice.

Knowing you'll not engage fairly, I'll just point out too that had I not used my own game as an example you'd almost assurredly start harping on about how you don't know what it looks like and thus bad.

And I know this, because you did it anyway, by just throwing out baseless claims about what such systems look like when it was entirely uncalled for.