Limiting Short Rests to 2x/day

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, 4e wouldn't be a good fit for that playstyle, it really doesn't want you to do that.

It wants the GM to handcraft every combat map, with interesting features and stuff, but doesn't have a system in place to help you do that (like a deck of cards with elements like 'big drop' or 'furniture' that you'd place on a grid as you randomly drew them). Something that encourages the players to vary what they're doing.

We played a lot of 4e (its entire span) and had a lot of fun. But as I said, it always felt off for us. And I really like that game. Essentials started to go in the right direction for us. Faster combat. More natural language (go into a stance and just attack felt way more convenient). And last but not least: different recharge rates for martials and the rest, which for us spiced things up.

And still, we just never made real progress in the camapaigns... which was due to the fact that we could not find enough time to play, so the switch to 5e which is designed to be played in shorter time frames was natural for us.

4e was in no way a bad game. Just not the right fit for us.

 

[NaturalZero]

What LR classes get was never in contention, they are noteworthy in that situation because a 5mwd expectation is a thing with near universal acceptance as a player problem caused by being overly quick to burn slots before demanding a rest... In other words when that warlock/SR class player does the same thing by burning their SR pool & demanding a SR with such force that they blame their fellow players simply not wanting to wait as the reason they were denied a SR rather than the consequence they are heeding. That warlock/SR class player is unquestionably expecting an unreasonable level of resource burn & should learn to pace themselves just like those LR casters.

You're just repeating the same false equivalency. Expecting the guy with 12 spell slots to go through the whole day without rest is not equivalent to expecting the guy with 2 spells slots to go through the whole day without a rest. What you're claiming sounds like a billionaire telling millennials that they aren't rich because they spend too much money on avocado toast. The math doesn't add up at all.

I've pointed out repeatedly that the warlock & other SR classes also get abilities in the form of powerful at-will abilities intended to bridge the gap and take them through the whole day, the post you quoted even notes their existence. Unlike those LR casters though the warlock/other SR class player can do so by relying on their powerful at-will abilities like agonizing repelling blast bladelock stuff arcanum slots & other invocations in addition to cantrips* the LR class players should more heavily lean on.

That's great but we're also talking about a hypothetical new edition. If the at-wills are too strong when combat features refresh every 5 minutes, tune them down or move their extra power to the short rest features. I don't think we, or at least I, am talking about pasting 5 minute rests onto 5e without an overhaul.

 

[NaturalZero]

Once again. We had a whole edition where combats were exiting meaningless, because you recovered most of your resources afterwards.
Nearly no resource management.

If this were really what made combats meaningless, then a party of swashbuckler rogues or champion fighters would always have meaningless combats.

Ironically, fighters, rogues ,and other classes also had more resources to lose over a day in 4e when you include dailies and the healing mechanic that demanded the sacrifice of not only leader spells but healing surges. For many PCs, there were more daily resources that had to be replenished than in 5e.

Combats also took way too long for people who can't afford playing 8 hours on the weekend regularly to make any meaningful campaign progress.

Meanwhile, I play 5e with students in a 45min slot and we are making progress everytime.

So while 4e had its merits, I don't want 5e to turn into 4e regarding resource management.

I 100% percent agree that combats were too long in 4e and don't want go back to that. I also do not want to go back to uniform AEDU classes either. 5 minute short rests though, seem to be something they got just right. Give players a handful of things that can choose to do whenever a fight breaks out instead of spamming at-wills. I miss tables where there was never an argument about a 5 minute break.

That said, the balancing for 8 encounters per day is also dodgy. So some rebalancing seems good.

I'd even go for maybe balance short rest classes for 1 to 1.5 short rest per day. And expect only 3 to 4 encounters.
So on a busy day, short rest classes are slightly stronger. On a one or two combat day, long rest classes are stronger. And on an 8 encounter day, the rogue will outshine everyone.

I've been playing consistently since the summer 3.5 came out and I've never seen an adventuring day with 8 encounters, so I feel like the devs are out of touch. I posted a survey here about the average number of encounters a group has during a single day awhile back and got a lot of responses. I think the average number of encounters per day ended up being no more than 2.

 

[James Gasik]

Let's not forget that hit points are the universal and ultimate resource.

 

[mamba]

5 minute short rests though, seem to be something they got just right.

you mean they are something you like…

Give players a handful of things that can choose to do whenever a fight breaks out instead of spamming at-wills. I miss tables where there was never an argument about a 5 minute break.

I miss tables where SR do not exist

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I love encounter-based design and powers, but I would rather have all classes be based on long rest, than have WotC's passive-aggressive 1-hour short rests.

 

[tetrasodium]

You're just repeating the same false equivalency. Expecting the guy with 12 spell slots to go through the whole day without rest is not equivalent to expecting the guy with 2 spells slots to go through the whole day without a rest. What you're claiming sounds like a billionaire telling millennials that they aren't rich because they spend too much money on avocado toast. The math doesn't add up at all.


That's great but we're also talking about a hypothetical new edition. If the at-wills are too strong when combat features refresh every 5 minutes, tune them down or move their extra power to the short rest features. I don't think we, or at least I, am talking about pasting 5 minute rests onto 5e without an overhaul.

Did you not notice that warlock has a bunch of powerful at will abilities to bridge that resource gap or that they have those abilities at all? Are you saying that wotc was in error by providing unlimited use of things like the bladelock thing agonizing repelling blast all of the cast x spell an unlimited number of times and so on on top of a SR power pool growing in both size and power? Warlock and other SR classes can't have it both ways and demand at will SRs as you've been doing.

 

[NaturalZero]

Did you not notice that warlock has a bunch of powerful at will abilities to bridge that resource gap or that they have those abilities at all? Are you saying that wotc was in error by providing unlimited use of things like the bladelock thing agonizing repelling blast all of the cast x spell an unlimited number of times and so on on top of a SR power pool growing in both size and power?

One of the biggest complaints about the warlock is that they just have to spam the same at-will all day. The fact that they're reduced to that is exactly what many are having an issue with. You're saying it's fine for the LR classes to have variety and spell slots all day because the warlock can just play the game in auto-mode instead of rest. It's coping with a problem, not solving one.

In my initial post I didn't even mention warlock, you brought them up and now we seem be stuck on them but they're not even close to the only issue. Every class suffers if you don't let them use hit dice because the rest of the party won't rest. The monk wasting ki on things that don't work but not being able to get them back is a common complaint. People think the Champion is the worst because it only gets a good auto-attack. You're taking one of the big complaints about class design in 5e and claiming that a lack of options is a feature. The 1 hour short rest has been needlessly causing issues throughout the system.

Warlock and other SR classes can't have it both ways and demand at will SRs as you've been doing.

I literally just said in the post that you quoted that if you have to tune down the power of at-wills or move their extra power to short rest features to balance things, they can do that because it's a new edition. You chose ignore what I wrote in order to make up an argument that was the opposite of what I said and attribute it to me.

you mean they are something you like…

It's not even about what I like. The 1 hour short rest introduced the entire narrative of party members arguing over short rests that didn't exist before. Whether or not I like that, it's a common phenomenon on the boards and IRL.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If this were really what made combats meaningless, then a party of swashbuckler rogues or champion fighters would always have meaningless combats.

Probably you are right. But that never happened in 5e so far.

Ironically, fighters, rogues ,and other classes also had more resources to lose over a day in 4e when you include dailies and the healing mechanic that demanded the sacrifice of not only leader spells but healing surges. For many PCs, there were more daily resources that had to be replenished than in 5e.

Yes. Probably.

I 100% percent agree that combats were too long in 4e and don't want go back to that. I also do not want to go back to uniform AEDU classes either. 5 minute short rests though, seem to be something they got just right. Give players a handful of things that can choose to do whenever a fight breaks out instead of spamming at-wills. I miss tables where there was never an argument about a 5 minute break.

I disagree here. 5 min was too short in my opinion. I would be ok with 30min though.

I've been playing consistently since the summer 3.5 came out and I've never seen an adventuring day with 8 encounters, so I feel like the devs are out of touch. I posted a survey here about the average number of encounters a group has during a single day awhile back and got a lot of responses. I think the average number of encounters per day ended up being no more than 2.

You probably mean 5e. Yes. That is way off.
If you actually did that, you would be level 20 in a month or so... So I'd really like some adjustment there.

 

[NaturalZero]

You probably mean 5e. Yes. That is way off.
If you actually did that, you would be level 20 in a month or so... So I'd really like some adjustment there.

I actually did mean 3.5. I've played a ton of 3.5, 4e, and 5e and I've never seen a day with 8 encounters in any system.

 

[Horwath]

I actually did mean 3.5. I've played a ton of 3.5, 4e, and 5e and I've never seen a day with 8 encounters in any system.

You can have 8 easy to medium encounters in a day to spend the "XP budget" or as I like to call them "do we really need to roll for this encounter?"

 

[tetrasodium]

One of the biggest complaints about the warlock is that they just have to spam the same at-will all day. The fact that they're reduced to that is exactly what many are having an issue with. You're saying it's fine for the LR classes to have variety and spell slots all day because the warlock can just play the game in auto-mode instead of rest. It's coping with a problem, not solving one.

In my initial post I didn't even mention warlock, you brought them up and now we seem be stuck on them but they're not even close to the only issue. Every class suffers if you don't let them use hit dice because the rest of the party won't rest. The monk wasting ki on things that don't work but not being able to get them back is a common complaint. People think the Champion is the worst because it only gets a good auto-attack. You're taking one of the big complaints about class design in 5e and claiming that a lack of options is a feature. The 1 hour short rest has been needlessly causing issues throughout the system.


I literally just said in the post that you quoted that if you have to tune down the power of at-wills or move their extra power to short rest features to balance things, they can do that because it's a new edition. You chose ignore what I wrote in order to make up an argument that was the opposite of what I said and attribute it to me.


It's not even about what I like. The 1 hour short rest introduced the entire narrative of party members arguing over short rests that didn't exist before. Whether or not I like that, it's a common phenomenon on the boards and IRL.

This is not a new thing. Warlock and other short rest classes had those kinds of powerful at will abilities since 2014. It's just been easier to point at bad design for a shield while wield the social contract like a club to blame the LR class players and gm for denying them a rest they need after refusing to moderate their slot burn to any level shy of immediate nova through any encounter when they get pushback on the 5mwd they are trying to push since 2014.

 

[mamba]

It's not even about what I like. The 1 hour short rest introduced the entire narrative of party members arguing over short rests that didn't exist before. Whether or not I like that, it's a common phenomenon on the boards and IRL.

ok, so 1h SR lead to arguments, I rather have those than have 5min SR however, those are just broken.

Preferably we would have no recharge in SR at all, if that is not doable, keep it at 1h, twice a day

 

[Horwath]

ok, so 1h SR lead to arguments, I rather have those than have 5min SR however, those are just broken.

Preferably we would have no recharge in SR at all, if that is not doable, keep it at 1h, twice a day

1min short rest, so you can take it after every battle, even during if it's a siege. Or no SR at all and key all abilities from LR.

have spending a HD be part of Dodge Action,
1 HD at 1st level,
2 HD at 5th level,
3 HD at 11th level,
4 HD at 17th level,

 

[James Gasik]

Rests should be as frequent and take just as much time as the narrative can stand, all stop. There really shouldn't be a set amount of time they take. The play pattern should be as follows:

Player: man, we're a bit beat up, and the Monk could use more ki. DM, can we rest?"

DM: hm. You encountered a few decent places you could rest in, but there's no guarantee you'll be undetected.

Player: Ok, let's go for it.

OR

DM: sure, that's fine, by the time you finish searching the room, you can spend your Hit Dice and the Monk gets her ki back.

Even if the players use things like Rope Trick, the environment doesn't stop because the players do. If there are patrols or wandering foes, then rests can be tricky. If there's a time table, rests can be tricky.

If there's nothing going on around you though, rest away!

 

[NaturalZero]

It's just been easier to point at bad design for a shield while wield the social contract like a club to blame the LR class players and gm for denying them a rest they need after refusing to moderate their slot burn to any level shy of immediate nova through any encounter when they get pushback on the 5mwd they are trying to push since 2014.

You're honestly arguing that a guy moderating their slow burn of 2 spell slots over a day is that same as a guy moderating their 12 spells slots over day. "Just moderate" is copium, not problem solving.

The social contract isn't the problem. The LR class players aren't the problem. The 1 hour short rest created this problem where none existed with 5 minutes short rests..

 

[mamba]

The 1 hour short rest created this problem where none existed with 5 minutes short rests..

the 5min short rest is the problem the 1h SR tried fixing… I am all for a better fix of no SR recharge

 

[James Gasik]

That is another way to look at it. What if you just removed short rests entirely? SR classes get 3x their daily resources (as if 2 short rests are assumed) and you can spend Hit Dice to heal twice per day whenever you want.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I actually did mean 3.5. I've played a ton of 3.5, 4e, and 5e and I've never seen a day with 8 encounters in any system.

They're certainly not common, the impetus to rest is extreme, especially at low levels.

My first 4e group actually pulled a 8 encounter day, in the freak'n Keep on the Shadowfell, which got brutal. Action Points from milestones got us through it. Pre-E, Action Points, Item Dailies, and, at paragon, items that unlocked better dailies if you hit a milestone, all mitigated against that impetus to rest prematurely. But that only went so far - I've run plenty of longer days, for various reasons, but usually with some story element precluding rests. What really helped 4e hold together with shorter days was class balance, that and short rests (hey, original topic) after every encounter meant that, while they're was still an attrition game going on, it didn't readily turn into a death spiral.

Any other edition, yes, if you could possibly get spells back, you did, because it was just foolish not to. They're far too powerful/important a resource to ignore.

1e AD&D also tended towards shorter days. At low level, in particular, you could only handle so many fights before you ran out of spells and hp, and someone was going to die - or worse, drop to 'deaths door' and take a week to recover (new characters were instantaneous!)

I think the "short rest problem" that 5e was trying to 'fix' (the problem being that you were pretty likely to start every encounter at full hp, rather than start death-spiraling) was actually introduced by 3.0 and the infamous Wand of Cure Light Wounds. I also don't think it was a problem, at all, in the pacing or challenge sense. The real problem was that 3e Clerics were given a lot of spells/day with the expectation they'd be diverted to healing, and with the WoCLW tactic, they weren't, which awakened CoDzilla like an above-ground nuclear test.

 

[tetrasodium]

That is another way to look at it. What if you just removed short rests entirely? SR classes get 3x their daily resources (as if 2 short rests are assumed) and you can spend Hit Dice to heal twice per day whenever you want.

You really don't see any problems with a warlock having 6x4th level spells at level 6... 6x 5th level spells at level 9.. 9x5th level spells at level 11?

How about the half dozen fireballs it would grant at level 5?