D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

[Flamestrike]

What about the opposition? They're not allowed to declare an action as well ? They are jsut there starring in nothingness?

I don't know for everyone else but personally it doesn't match my experience with most non-surprise combat encounter i've DMed, played or watch both online and IRL. When you enter combat encounter you roll initiative and everyone takes a turn to act and no one is getting free attacks at the top of the initiative. You roll initiative because everyone tries to go first and do something...

I wasnt giving free attacks at the top of initiative.

Attacks happen in initiative order.

In my example initiative is only determining if your target can take reactions or not (and place in the turn). It doesnt matter what a surprised target rolls for initiative, he misses his first turn (or he has it, but cant do anything on it). So the attacker goes first, always (barring Alert etc).

 

[Hriston]

i think you misunderstand my variant rule for surprise and seem to confuse it with the regular surprise rules. My variant rule is based on deception not stealth and is meant to be used in a different scenario where normal surprise would not normally apply. The creature are noticed but may not be perceived as a threat, unless insight sees through the deception.

That's the thing. It doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It matters whether the creature is perceived at all. It's a forgone conclusion when determining surprise that the creature is a threat because you are already in combat with it. I understand the you are using a houserule and am just expressing my distaste for the rules-interpretation it seems to rely on.

 

[KahlessNestor]

That's the thing. It doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It matters whether the creature is perceived at all. It's a forgone conclusion when determining surprise that the creature is a threat because you are already in combat with it. I understand the you are using a houserule and am just expressing my distaste for the rules-interpretation it seems to rely on.

How are you already in combat in a social situation?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[ScaleyBob]

Back on topic, sometimes NPCs have the Parry ability, but I'm always forgetting to use it. I'm planning on adding a big, shiny token to place on top of my notes behind the screen next game, to help my remember.

I'm quite bad at forgetting Reactions for any monster. What surprised me about the Monster/NPC Parry, is how different it is to the Fighter's one. I think I'd prefer the Fighter's one to the Monster one as well. It'd come into effect more often as I have had the same problem as Remathilis.

One of the few rules niggles I've found PCs getting wrong/confused about is Proficiency - what you add it to, and what you don't. The other related rule is that Proficiency goes up based on Total level, whereas ASI's are based on specific class level. That was only worked out when people realised the Fighter had more ASIs than anyone else.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Where is the save rule again? I'm not finding it.

Basic rules, p.62 --> It doesn't mention any special behavior for rolling a 1 or 20.

Though does that even affect much? In all the official adventures the DC ranges from 10 to 20. And the adventurers usually have a modifier between -1 and 8, so it seems hard to not fail on a "1" and not succeed on a "20" in the first place.

 

[FarBeyondC]

@FarBeyondC

1st answer- That seems to be the most sensible option. However, let's say that the character who attacked first (the one who started the combat) rolls very poor initiative and, by the time he gets to act, the target he previously declared is already dead, killed by the other party members. Would you allow a change of target, or is the attack "locked" regardless?

I'd allow the change of target, or even a change of action, in this and similar cases - even if I don't consider it strictly by the book.

 

[Plaguescarred]

That's the thing. It doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It matters whether the creature is perceived at all. It's a forgone conclusion when determining surprise that the creature is a threat because you are already in combat with it. I understand the you are using a houserule and am just expressing my distaste for the rules-interpretation it seems to rely on.

But you're not in combat with it and it in fact not expected to be attacked by you at all, hence the surprise. You have all the rights to dislike it, but you should at least do so because of what it does, not by comparing it to the regular surprise rules as they're are not meant to be compared. They work off different assumptions.


One is a surprise from not expecting people to spring while the other is from not expecting people to turn against you. Both rely on letting your guard down and getting caught offguard by different factor - Deception instead of Stealth.

 

[Arial Black]

That's the thing. It doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It matters whether the creature is perceived at all. It's a forgone conclusion when determining surprise that the creature is a threat because you are already in combat with it. I understand the you are using a houserule and am just expressing my distaste for the rules-interpretation it seems to rely on.

The bolded part is where you are factually incorrect per 5E rules.

You even quote the rule yourself! "A character or monster who doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

Remember, this is on p189, the first page of the chapter that tells us how combat works: in combat rounds in initiative order having determined surprise.

The 'start of the encounter' here refers to the start of combat rounds. The surprise rules are all about how to modify what creatures can do/not do in the first combat round, not about roleplaying their astonishment.

What Plaguescarred thinks is a variant rule is actually RAW. In the usual D&D-type encounter, you see orcs and you believe that orcs are a threat and so you chaaaarge!...and that's where the combat and surprise rules come in.

But when you are in diplomatic talks, as soon as the Cormyrian ambassador walks into the room with his entourage, if you shout "Chaaaaarge!"....then I think you might have missed a day of diplomat training...!

This diplomatic negotiation is not a combat encounter. The other diplomats are not 'threats' in combat terms, so seeing the diplomats is not 'noticing a threat'. Now, when one of them gets a homicidal twitch in his eye, draws a dagger and stabs you (or tries to)....that's a threat you can notice!

And to notice that kind of threat, Perception versus Stealth is inappropriate, because you've noticed his presence half an hour ago! But he wasn't a threat until he went for his dagger with murderous intent.

And to notice this threat, Deception versus Insight is appropriate. Just like the gunfighter, it's his body language that may give him away, and your skill at reading people (Insight) that lets you notice that he has murderous intent.

You see, 'surprise' and 'initiative' are measuring different things. Initiative measures reaction speed, but that only matters once you have started to react! It's like the starter pistol to start the 100m sprint. The reaction speed only begins when the starter pistol fires.

The moment you notice a threat is when the starter pistol fires for you. Your initiative measures how fast you react to a stimulus, but it's noticing a threat that sets that reaction off.

So you're an hour into the negotiations when suddenly one of the diplomats twitches maniacally and draws his dagger. Do you react in time? It depends. Did you think he was going to sneeze, at it came as a shock to you when he stabbed someone? Or did you read him like a book and your fine-tuned reactions kick in while the rest of them were standing about like sheep? That's what the Deception versus Insight contest is for. It doesn't matter how quick your reaction time is if you don't even start reacting because you didn't realise that there is a threat to react to!

 

[Hriston]

How are you already in combat in a social situation?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

You aren't. You don't determine surprise in a social interaction. You determine surprise at the start of combat. What I said that you are responding to is that you are already in combat when surprise is determined. The person you were negotiating with is a threat because she is trying to put a dagger into you. Are you surprised? As per the rules, no, because you already noticed her when the two of you were talking.

 

[JonnyP71]

If one entire side is surprised I just ignore the RAW and play it as an old fashioned surprise round. The side who are surprised roll their initiative after the surprise round is over. That *feels* better to me.