D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

[SkidAce]

But if a creature is surprised and no attack comes...what were they surprised by? How did they stop being surprised?

Order of Operations:
1 - Assassin: "I shoot my bow at the unaware guard!"
2 - DM: "Okay, the guard is surprised. Roll initiative."
3 - Init is rolled. Guard wins.
4 - DM: "Okay, the guard is not surprised anymore because of reasons. Your turn."
5 - Assassin: "Okay, I don't shoot the guard." / "...I ready an action to shoot the guard when she IS surprised."
6 - DM: "Uhh...okay, no combat happens, and the guard continues on its patrol, still unaware of you. What do you do?"
7 - Assassin: "I shoot my bow at the unaware guard!"
8 - ...etc?

Well the way I see it, everything is "KINDA" all happening at the same time (I mean they aren't waiting to take turns right?) so the init os just helping us emulate combat.

So once the assassin attacks from their ambush spot, that starts everything and I would not retrograde it. If the "monk" wins init, then they are doing the kung fu thing, if the monk doesn't win init, the assassin nailed them successfully.

No wonky involved.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

Depending on DM ruling, that's still possible - your one free "interact with an object" that you get can be to unlock a door, freeing you to attack with your off-hand (or your off-hand and your main hand, or whatnot). If the DM rules it's your entire action to unlock a door, though, yeah, no bonus attack for you.

I don't know any DM's that would consider using Thieves Tools (Use an object) as a free item interaction to open a lock. I think the best you can do is be a Thief sub-class and use your bonus action to pick the lock and attack with your action. Arcane trickster may be able to as well if their Mage Hand is doing the lock picking (not exactly sure since I don't have book with me).

Now, if you are using a key to unlock the door, I could consider that a free object interaction. I would probably impose (DM discretion) disadvantage on the attack for splitting your focus in two separate directions.

 

[SkidAce]

I also apologize.

Should have read the thread before I replied. Sorry to contribute to the derailment.

 

[Olrox17]

So you are using intiative to determine stealth and you are allowing your players to metagame the initiative contest system.

I believe this thread has been derailed enough, so I'll stop talking about surprise & stealth here. Let's just say that your refusal to answer the questions I asked you certainly didn't help me see things your way.

Back on topic, It still makes me crazy that lightly obscured areas do not impact attack rolls at all. In my head, it's always light darkness = -2 to attack rolls, like regular cover. But nope.

 

[Plaguescarred]

That sound alright, although I'd think traitors might be ready for the possibility that someone could find them out. My real problem with it though is that it seems to contradict the statement that, "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." In this case, the PCs are a threat to the traitors, and it sounds like the traitors have definitely noticed them, so according to the above, they wouldn't be surprised.

They wouldn't be surprised only if they notice the threat by having their Insight check beats the Deception check....just like for a creature's Perception check beating on the Stealth check is not surprised.

 

[Hriston]

They wouldn't be surprised only if they notice the threat by having their Insight check beats the Deception check....just like for a creature's Perception check beating on the Stealth check is not surprised.

I'm sorry. I guess you don't understand. They have noticed the threat. They're having a social encounter with the threat. It's right there in front of them not trying to be stealthy in any way. Insight isn't for noticing someone. It's for determining someone's intentions or predicting their next move. Your house rule directly contradicts the surprise rules because it says a person can be surprised even when they have already noticed someone who is a threat.

 

[77IM]

Back to the OP's question:

Bonus Actions. I've seen so many players have trouble wrapping their heads around bonus actions -- what is and isn't a bonus action, when you can take them, how many you get (only one!), restrictions on spell casting, and OMG the confusion that is Extra Attack + TWF. It's like 5e eliminated the Minor Action and then snuck it back in as the Bonus Action, except different, because you can't give up your Action in order to take an additional Bonus Action. Hell even the terminology "bonus" is confusing, since that word already has an important meaning in the system.

So I'm continuously having to explain how bonus actions work or remind people that they're attempting multiple bonus actions ("Sorry, you can't cast healing word and direct your flaming sphere both in the same round"). It's become a huge pet peeve of mine in 5e.

 

[Flamestrike]

I agree, obvious counter.
Does every battle then start with a declared action? If the players are at a peace negotiation and you say “the orcish delegation roars angrily and draws their weapons, roll initiative” Is their turn spent drawing their weapons? After all, they declared an action, they can’t take that back and do something else instead, like moving or attacking.

We’re in the same situation, you’re having the player pre-commit to an action, then rolling initiative.

He's not precomitting to any action.

Hes declaring an action, and you (the DM) have moved to the action resolution.

The initiative roll is the consequence of the action; it's no different to the attack roll.

1. Declare you want to attack. (combat starts).
2. Player and DM check to see if the surprised target of the attack can react in time to your attack (initiative).
3. Make attack roll.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I'm sorry. I guess you don't understand. They have noticed the threat. They're having a social encounter with the threat. It's right there in front of them not trying to be stealthy in any way. Insight isn't for noticing someone. It's for determining someone's intentions or predicting their next move. Your house rule directly contradicts the surprise rules because it says a person can be surprised even when they have already noticed someone who is a threat.

i think you misunderstand my variant rule for surprise and seem to confuse it with the regular surprise rules. My variant rule is based on deception not stealth and is meant to be used in a different scenario where normal surprise would not normally apply. The creature are noticed but may not be perceived as a threat, unless insight sees through the deception.

 

[Plaguescarred]

He's not precomitting to any action.

Hes declaring an action, and you (the DM) have moved to the action resolution.

The initiative roll is the consequence of the action; it's no different to the attack roll.

1. Declare you want to attack. (combat starts).
2. Player and DM check to see if the surprised target of the attack can react in time to your attack (initiative).
3. Make attack roll.

What about the opposition? They're not allowed to declare an action as well ? They are jsut there starring in nothingness?

I don't know for everyone else but personally it doesn't match my experience with most non-surprise combat encounter i've DMed, played or watch both online and IRL. When you enter combat encounter you roll initiative and everyone takes a turn to act and no one is getting free attacks at the top of the initiative. You roll initiative because everyone tries to go first and do something...