D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

[Plaguescarred]

I disagree with this, although it does appear to be a popular approach. To me, a straight reading of the rules indicates that you don't need to recognize the creature as a threat. You only need to notice the creature and you will not be surprised by it.

The rules tell the DM how to determine surprise. Someone has to try to be stealthy. If they do, their Stealth check is contested by the Perception check of anyone focused on detecting hidden threats. That's it.

I agree with you. Arial Black is taking the sentence out of context. The threat that surprise creature do not notice is in reference to anyone hiding that the DM compared Stealth vs Perception against. There is otherwise no surprise if no one is hiding as they automatically notice each other.


Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Of course DM can determine surprise in other ways as he see fit if he want, the surprise rules just don't tell how. Personally i use the following variant surprise rules in my campaign for deceptive surprise;

[Variant] Surprise: If neither side tries to be deceptive, they automatically size each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Charisma (Deception) checks of anyone deceiving with the passive Wisdom (Insight) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a deception is surprised at the start of the encounter.

 

[Hriston]

Of course DM can determine surprise in other ways as he see fit if he want, the surprise rules just don't tell how. Personally i use the following variant surprise rules in my campaign for deceptive surprise;

[Variant] Surprise: If neither side tries to be deceptive, they automatically size each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Charisma (Deception) checks of anyone deceiving with the passive Wisdom (Insight) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a deception is surprised at the start of the encounter.

There is, of course, no rule against adding your own rules. I just think that the inclusion of that particular rule cheapens Surprise, which should be difficult to get. For example, I'd be more inclined to give someone who successfully conceals a palmed weapon advantage on initiative, rather than full-blown surprise, which IMO should be reserved for situations in which the aggressors are completely hidden.

 

[Plaguescarred]

There is, of course, no rule against adding your own rules. I just think that the inclusion of that particular rule cheapens Surprise, which should be difficult to get.

You're right in that if used too much it may do, but so far i've used it only sparingly in specific decoy attempts where the opposing side had no idea it was about to get attacked by PCs and it felt right at the time. One situation they were in a social encounter with friendly people that the PC had secretly discovered were traitors when they attacked.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Just a reminder to everyone that specific always overrules general. So anything in a class or monster skill or ability that gives something specific for determining surprise, initiative, etc will always overrule the more general rules in the combat section of the PHB. So if people want to argue how the combat rules in general work, they should not be bringing in specific corner case rules that invalidate the more general rules. Please argue apples vs apples, not apples vs oranges.

 

[Hriston]

You're right in that if used too much it may do, but so far i've used it only sparingly in specific decoy attempts where the opposing side had no idea it was about to get attacked by PCs and it felt right at the time. One situation they were in a social encounter with friendly people that the PC had secretly discovered were traitors when they attacked.

That sound alright, although I'd think traitors might be ready for the possibility that someone could find them out. My real problem with it though is that it seems to contradict the statement that, "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." In this case, the PCs are a threat to the traitors, and it sounds like the traitors have definitely noticed them, so according to the above, they wouldn't be surprised.

 

[thalmin]

This thread was very interesting until it became yet-another-stealth-assassin thread.

I agree fully. To Mouseferatu, to you, and everybody else, I apologize for adding to this stealth-assassin threadjacking.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

In a similar vein to the Surprise argument, I run into some players that insisted that the rule is that Assassins get Assassinate auto-crit anytime they beat their opponent in initiative and that qualifies as the opponent being surprised/unaware.

 

[fuindordm]

Back on topic, sometimes NPCs have the Parry ability, but I'm always forgetting to use it. I'm planning on adding a big, shiny token to place on top of my notes behind the screen next game, to help my remember.

 

[Remathilis]

Back on topic, sometimes NPCs have the Parry ability, but I'm always forgetting to use it. I'm planning on adding a big, shiny token to place on top of my notes behind the screen next game, to help my remember.

I find every time I remember to use it, the PC who hit them was way over the parry amount, so I forget it again...