Liz Schuh on Dragon/Dungeon moving to the web

[JRRNeiklot]

There's way too many free sites out there for me to pay WOTC just to visit their website. Sure, Joe's D&D page might have a problem with editing, but I can translate teh to the pretty easily. One of my other hobbies is backpacking. I surf the net a lot for new gear, trails, etc. Trails.com comes up quite often. It's a pay site that offers topo maps, reviews etc about backpacking for a monthly fee. I have yet to sign up for that and never will. With a little ingenuity, I can find my info elsewhere. I'm sure they probably make decent money, since I gather it's a small company and has little to no overhead. If they have a hundred subscribers, it probably makes them money. WOTC, however, will need many, many more subscribers than that to appease the beast that is Hasbro. I seriously believe this Digital Initiative will fail like the new Coke and Gatorade Light.

 

[Lockridge]

2 cents:
Most consumer re-writable DVDs and CDs break down over a period of 5 year or so. Most techs recommend using backup harddrives. Of course the right power surge or "something" will put an end to that as well.

Actually a fire is a LOT less likely to occur than a power surge on your system. If you think a UPS will stop that then think again - there are other ways for data to become corrupted. As a matter of fact, a fire will generally kill your PC and all media as easily as your stack of magazines. An old motherboard that suddenly dies can take some of your components with it for example.

Both paper and electronic media seem difficult to preserve. Electronic media is indexable but then one could create the same index for a stack of magazines as they do in some libraries.

Paper magazines are a pain to move around or dig through but then digging out the old DOS or Commodore computer and manual to get at a document seems equally difficult.

Maybe the real winner is determined by the fact that paper is easier to read on the eyes than a computer screen.

 

[WizarDru]

The fact of the matter is that no medium is permanent. Paper breaks down, and is just as susceptible to fire, flood, air pollution and other environmental factors as anything else. Paper also comes in varying qualities, just like electronic media: I have magazines from the 70s and 80s that are yellowing from exposure to the air, have staples coming loose in the paper, have damage from the oils of a readers fingers and so forth. I have printed pictures from 80 years ago that still survive, and I have pictures from just 30 years ago that have yellowed and decayed. I have pictures from 10 years ago that have curled and slightly disfigured, and other pictures from 20 years ago that look as good as they day they were developed.

Conversely, I have 25 year-old video tapes that, while degraded, still play. I just cleaned off my desk and threw away 10 year old CD-Rs and even older Zip disks....and yes, they were all still readable. Some of them had data that I transferred to newer media...some of them I threw away. I also had some old floppies, some of which worked and some of which didn't.

My point is that the lifetime of the media shouldn't really be the issue. If we're anticipating a catastrophic failure of the infrastructure wherein no solution will exist for reading old AIT tapes, CD-Rs, DVDRs and whatever else, I'm not sure how that's different from an infrastructure collapse where we lose the indexes to 30+ years of articles, submissions, slush piles, artwork and other assorted documents.

I have plenty of printed RPG books from my youth that are still whole (such as TSRs core 3) but that I have other, more recent games that didn't. My Ringworld RPG books fell apart. My Doctor Who RPG book barely lasted four years. I don't even KNOW what happened to my Star Ace RPG or associated modules. My Runequest and Powers and Perils characters? Lost to time and storage.

I guess my point is that I'm not nearly as concerned about getting in paper the first time as I am about getting it in a format that is useful to me. A searchable PDF with bookmarks and indeexes would be useful. A substitute for paper? No....but it has different strengths and advantages that make it a viable pltform for some applications, to me.

 

[The_Gneech]

This thread is a fine case for stone tablets.

But the shipping is a bear.

-The Gneech

 

[Dark Psion]

To me the real question is accessability.

I got Dungeon #147 yesterday.

The moment I take it out of its wrapper, it is accessable. It is not dependant on location, power supply, internet provider, operating system, DRM or anything aside from me being able to read english (sorry barbarians). It came allready printed (in color no less!) and bound on a very good, high quality paper.
(Just how many ink cartridges whold a single issue use up? )

Today, I took it to work and read it at lunch. I did not need a laptop, WiFi, internet-cell phone or any form of technology to access it. (I just needed people to leave me alone so I could read it )

Yes, with all the modern technology out there, you should be able to do the same with the new internet initinative, but from my point of view that would cost me over $1000.

Personally, I would rather spend $7.99 on the magazine.

 

[Odhanan]

FYI - link to the conversation that Henry is talking about http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=5394

Just checked out that thread on CM. As a person who was studying in university in the fields of information gathering, documentation, libraries and new technologies, I can confirm the threat of a "Digital Dark Age" is a prime concern of documentation and information professionals around the world. This is a very concrete, real threat overlooked by everyone but the people who work in the field.

 

[Ghendar]

And here is the crux of the issue:

We've heard the "eyeballs" comment before, but this time a number is attached to it. If only 1% of visitors actually pay for the subscription that's 130,000 subscriptions! A quick search at Paizo's website and I have the total paid circulation of Dragon magazine at 62,000 in 2005.

So, it doesn't really matter how many people doesn't like it, only 0.5% has to buy in for them to make more money than the print magazines (assuming they charge the same). Heck, even if every single current Dragon subscriber/buyer doesn't spend a penny on the DI it wouldn't make a dent on their calculations.

I like our capitalist system, it just sucks that this time I got the short end of the stick.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
It looks like my protest will amount to naught.

 

[Ghendar]

Once again the 'Why not produce the web-based content and the print magazines at the same time?' question is sidestepped with an irrelevant non-answer. It's beginning to look undeniably like it's WotC policy not to give a genuine response to this one.

Yeah
And I for one am getting sick of the sidestepping.


Why are the two channels mutually exclusive--why couldn't you do both?

That's a good question. We really just feel at this point that the Web is a better delivery system than a printed magazine.

And yet hundreds of monthly paper magazines are available in retail stores at this very moment. Seems like a lot of publishers believe that print is still a better delivery system. Unfortunately, WotC does not.

 

[Ghendar]

To me the real question is accessability.

I got Dungeon #147 yesterday.

The moment I take it out of its wrapper, it is accessable. It is not dependant on location, power supply, internet provider, operating system, DRM or anything aside from me being able to read english (sorry barbarians). It came allready printed (in color no less!) and bound on a very good, high quality paper.
(Just how many ink cartridges whold a single issue use up? )

Today, I took it to work and read it at lunch. I did not need a laptop, WiFi, internet-cell phone or any form of technology to access it. (I just needed people to leave me alone so I could read it )

Yes, with all the modern technology out there, you should be able to do the same with the new internet initinative, but from my point of view that would cost me over $1000.

Personally, I would rather spend $7.99 on the magazine.

As would I. Your post sums up my position perfectly.

 

[daemonslye]

First, because the mags (or print mags) ending is, in a way, the ending of an era for the game. While WotC is not legally obligated to tell us why they are ending that era, I nonetheless feel that they are obligated to give us some explaination. I hold them to my moral compass with my support and money.....that is my right and my duty under a free market economy.

Second, because of the implication that Paizo's content was pulled on the basis of its success and value. That success and value means that I will continue to support Paizo with my dollars, rather than WotC's DI. Again, I hold them to my moral compass with my support and money.....that is my right and my duty under a free market economy.

Word. I agree - People have an individual choice to continue to support WOTC's direction. Every product purchased from WOTC is a vote that will have their leadership nodding to themselves and smirking, "Told you so. Starve them for content, and they will come to whatever table we set out. Hey, look at my models around a proprietary, online subscription-based 4E, dude! THIRTEEN MILLION!!!"

~D