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D&D 5E Long Rests vs Short Rests

Would you rather have all abilities recover on a:

  • Short Rest

    Votes: 21 36.2%
  • Long Rest

    Votes: 37 63.8%

  • Total voters
    58

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
That's why it's a gamble! You might make the wrong choice some time and it will matter!
Sure, and in small doses that’s fine. But when all of your resources are daily, it gets far more difficult (and less fun) to try and manage them all.
Again, that just sounds like playing D&D to me!
It’s been a common part of the D&D experience for a long time, and generally not a part of it I’ve enjoyed.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
No, as long as people feel like that unused slot or slots kept them from burning a nonrecovering resource like potions scrolls or old style wand charges.
How could not using a recoverable resource save you from burning a nonrecoverable one?
edit: some people enjoy threading that needle of restraint vrs running dry when they need it most too
Of course some people do. Lots of people do. I don’t, and I was sharing my opinion, as I was asked to do.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
How could not using a recoverable resource save you from burning a nonrecoverable one?

Of course some people do. Lots of people do. I don’t, and I was sharing my opinion, as I was asked to do.
Peace of mind. Spells used to pack a lot of punch & as a result had significant ability to reverse a cascade of bad if things went bad all of a sudden. Knowing that the caster still has an ace in their pocket to do that if things get bad can make the scroll/wand charge/potion something a player can confidently hold off on. That holding off could have taken place on the last fight or any other fight too because it was still providing reassurance even if there wasn't reason to think abour pulling the cord on that nonrecovering charge/item
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Peace of mind. Spells used to pack a lot of punch & as a result had significant ability to reverse a cascade of bad if things went bad all of a sudden. Knowing that the caster still has an ace in their pocket to do that if things get bad can make the scroll/wand charge/potion something a player can confidently hold off on.
Right, but if the need to use the spell never arose, neither did the need to use the scroll/wand charge/potion/etc. Using a spell could certainly save you the use of a non-reusable resource, but not using a spell doesn’t.
That holding off could have taken place on the last fight or any other fight too because it was still providing reassurance even if there wasn't reason to think abour pulling the cord on that nonrecovering charge/item
But had you used that spell earlier to end a fight, you could have saved more of your other resources (such as HP) and the last fight might not have needed to be the last one.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Right, but if the need to use the spell never arose, neither did the need to use the scroll/wand charge/potion/etc. Using a spell could certainly save you the use of a non-reusable resource, but not using a spell doesn’t.

But had you used that spell earlier to end a fight, you could have saved more of your other resources (such as HP) and the last fight might not have needed to be the last one.
Your assuming the same spell. Take some kind of meningful control, save or suck, save and suck or whatever spell. Th fact that the caster can use it to reverse things if needed means that the point where some other spell potion scroll or wand charge is needed has a wider safety margin.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Your assuming the same spell.
No, I’m not.
Take some kind of meningful control, save or suck, save and suck or whatever spell. Th fact that the caster can use it to reverse things if needed means that the point where some other spell potion scroll or wand charge is needed has a wider safety margin.
Right, but only if you use the spell to obviate the need for the other expendable resource. You use the save or suck spell to end a fight quickly so you don’t need to use the healing potion. You use the charm or illusion spell to avoid a fight do you don’t need to use the fireball scroll. Whatever. Point is, using one resource can eliminate the need to use another, but not using it won’t. Maybe having the resource in reserve makes you feel more comfortable taking risks, that’s a meaningful benefit. But if you never actually use the resource, that piece of mind was an illusion. You never meaningfully took advantage of that resource.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
No, I’m not.

Right, but only if you use the spell to obviate the need for the other expendable resource. You use the save or suck spell to end a fight quickly so you don’t need to use the healing potion. You use the charm or illusion spell to avoid a fight do you don’t need to use the fireball scroll. Whatever. Point is, using one resource can eliminate the need to use another, but not using it won’t. Maybe having the resource in reserve makes you feel more comfortable taking risks, that’s a meaningful benefit. But if you never actually use the resource, that piece of mind was an illusion. You never meaningfully took advantage of that resource.
not at all. "I can cast x if we need to pull back & regroup", "I can block off the hall with Y if the guards come running while we are dealing with these here", "I've got these guys with x for now but can cast z to make them harmless if they break out while your dealing with the little guys", etc. 5e's double burden of unimpressive spells overused concentration & excessive saves cuts off a lot of this type of play but it was there in past editions when we didn't have uinverted LFQW made into QFLW.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
not at all. "I can cast x if we need to pull back & regroup", "I can block off the hall with Y if the guards come running while we are dealing with these here", "I've got these guys with x for now but can cast z to make them harmless if they break out while your dealing with the little guys",
Yes, but if none of that happens and you go to bed with unused spells, they go to waste.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
it is extremely rare that players use all class abilities all spell slots and all hp before resting,likely something bordering on never.
Well, yeah, because the vast majority of PC resources are daily, which as I said, makes it very difficult to predict when you’ll need to use them. But it’s quite easy as a warlock to consistently use all of your spell slots, mystic arcana, and limited-use invocations each adventuring day. Because they have a nice mix of at-will, short rest, and long rest abilities. That’s my point.
 

It takes a skilled party (or mindless foes) to have six separate encounters on a dungeon level, especially with the ability to take two one-hour breaks in-between. If the party screws up at all and their presence is noticed, the logical consequence is two encounters: the first encounter, and then a chaotic mass combat involving all the rest of the combatants (with fleeing/cowering non-combatants mixed in) of that level, plus possibly combatant reinforcements from other levels.

Rarely have I seen the entire dungeon level flock to the PCs for one giant encounter. Generally speaking its a group of 5 or so people, exploring rooms, and dealing with each room on a relatively individual basis.

That's been the basic premise of DnD since for ever.
 


Short rest.

I prefer per-encounter abilities in general mostly because I hate the 'adventuring day' in general and can't be assed to run ten thousand encounters every session just to generate a resource allocation minigame.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Rarely have I seen the entire dungeon level flock to the PCs for one giant encounter. Generally speaking its a group of 5 or so people, exploring rooms, and dealing with each room on a relatively individual basis.

That's been the basic premise of DnD since for ever.
Fair enough. I'll rephrase my claim to make it more style-specific: in a game where dungeon inhabitants are proactive about responding to the PC's presence (whether that's a coordinated response, a chaotic response, or simply panic/flight), it's much harder to get six separate encounters on one level of a dungeon.
 


aco175

Legend
Would all long-rest recharge encourage the 5-minute work day? Would all short-rest recharge encourage the same thing? I'm not sure, I know some/most depends on the DM and how things are structured.

Going to all long-rest may need to convert some spells back to an older edition where spells gained power by caster level. It may also need to boost some powers like the fighter's Second Wind, making it more powerful or usable a number of times based on the Constitution modifier. Although, making powers usable based on a stat modifier may be the same as making them encounter powers- or more powerful if you can 2nd Wind 5 times per day instead of a couple by taking a few short rests.
 

Would all long-rest recharge encourage the 5-minute work day? Would all short-rest recharge encourage the same thing? I'm not sure, I know some/most depends on the DM and how things are structured.

Going to all long-rest may need to convert some spells back to an older edition where spells gained power by caster level. It may also need to boost some powers like the fighter's Second Wind, making it more powerful or usable a number of times based on the Constitution modifier. Although, making powers usable based on a stat modifier may be the same as making them encounter powers- or more powerful if you can 2nd Wind 5 times per day instead of a couple by taking a few short rests.

I don't think the rest system should be solely responsible for controlling when players what to recover abilities.

The problem is that you should not be at peak performance at the end of a long rest and before you've engaged in any encounters. If the game wants to make resource management interesting, then players need to be rewarded for reaching encounter 6 or encounter 8. Casting a fireball in encounter 5 should be way better than doing it in encounter 1, or the rewards for completing encounter 5 should be higher than those from encounter 1.

We need to stop punishing players because they've recognized that they're at peak performance immediately after a long rest. It's not their fault that the game is designed that way. We need to fix the way encounters work across an adventuring day to fix that problem.

Edit: Dropped a word.
 
Last edited:

Xeviat

Hero
Supporter
Would all long-rest recharge encourage the 5-minute work day? Would all short-rest recharge encourage the same thing? I'm not sure, I know some/most depends on the DM and how things are structured.

Going to all long-rest may need to convert some spells back to an older edition where spells gained power by caster level. It may also need to boost some powers like the fighter's Second Wind, making it more powerful or usable a number of times based on the Constitution modifier. Although, making powers usable based on a stat modifier may be the same as making them encounter powers- or more powerful if you can 2nd Wind 5 times per day instead of a couple by taking a few short rests.

Going all long rest, I believe, supports an old school dungeon crawl attrition model. It also makes it so if you have 1 big fight in an otherwise slow chill day, all the PCs are on equal footing (and it means that fight needs to be BIG or the players will nova and blow it up). The down side, in my experience, is when players have a hard time feeling out the difference in this, and get a little trigger happy in what should be an attrition day; what do you do, stop and rest because the wizard fired off all their 3rd level spells?

Going all short rest makes it easier to balance classes and encounters, but I think it can also feel more "gamey" and make it harder to feel the exhaustion and attrition in the game. This would be doubly so if HP recovery isn't tied to something like healing surges like they were in 4E. I haen't ever ran a game with a Celestial Warlock, but I did run with a Life Cleric with the Healer feat, and I don't think the added healing between short rests made us feel invincible; we still pressed on to our next challenge (Fighters and Monks have self healing between short rests, so clearly the system supports this).
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Going all long rest, I believe, supports an old school dungeon crawl attrition model. It also makes it so if you have 1 big fight in an otherwise slow chill day, all the PCs are on equal footing (and it means that fight needs to be BIG or the players will nova and blow it up). The down side, in my experience, is when players have a hard time feeling out the difference in this, and get a little trigger happy in what should be an attrition day; what do you do, stop and rest because the wizard fired off all their 3rd level spells?

Going all short rest makes it easier to balance classes and encounters, but I think it can also feel more "gamey" and make it harder to feel the exhaustion and attrition in the game. This would be doubly so if HP recovery isn't tied to something like healing surges like they were in 4E. I haen't ever ran a game with a Celestial Warlock, but I did run with a Life Cleric with the Healer feat, and I don't think the added healing between short rests made us feel invincible; we still pressed on to our next challenge (Fighters and Monks have self healing between short rests, so clearly the system supports this).

having it so you only got a couple hp per rest & recovery of spells was more tied to time of day made it so the 5mwd & nova>rest>nova was very difficult since you'd still need to wait till a specific time of day with wizards needing a"a good night's sleep". by making long rests into reset buttons for every class without needing a given time or anything 5e encourages the 5mwd
 

Xeviat

Hero
Supporter
having it so you only got a couple hp per rest & recovery of spells was more tied to time of day made it so the 5mwd & nova>rest>nova was very difficult since you'd still need to wait till a specific time of day with wizards needing a"a good night's sleep". by making long rests into reset buttons for every class without needing a given time or anything 5e encourages the 5mwd
The long rest does have a once per 24 hours limitation built into it. Are you saying that tends to prevent the 5mwd in play when there's a goal in front of the characters?
 

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