Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Professor Phobos]

While it is clear that the game will certainly support modding your dragon to your heart's content- so as far as I am concerned, that argument is done, I'd like to take issue with the idea that it needs spellcasting levels to be a mastermind.

Those help...but it's still a giant, scary friggin' lizard that can eat villages, right? So why couldn't a dragon with an eye for some assistance take over a mortal kingdom?

It could go the "fear, terror" route and have a bunch of terrified people serving it to keep it from burninating the countryside. Until, of course, some stalwart band of heroes comes to liberate them (the PCs). But since the countryside has no faith in stalwart bands of heroes (as their crucified remains line the roads leading in) the PCs have to face the dragon's mortal agents motivated out of fear, self-interest (ruling in Hell, etc) or stockholm syndrome.

It could go the "Hey, I'll help you out, you help me out" route. The dragon lends its might to the defense of the region in exchange for a percentage of crops, worship, money, a nice hat, whatever. A rival kingdom hires the PCs to assassinate the dragon- but first they must get through all the people who like the darn thing or rely on it to supplement their armies. Or genuinely believe it to be divine. Or are its friends.

Obviously that can all be true (even moreso, actually) for a spell-casting dragon, but spells aren't a requisite for the thing to be an intelligent, long-term opponent. Particularly in a campaign where magic is rarer and so the dragon doesn't have to worry about it being particularly likely a passing super-wizard will scrag it effortlessly.

 

[Derren]

Those help...but it's still a giant, scary friggin' lizard that can eat villages, right? So why couldn't a dragon with an eye for some assistance take over a mortal kingdom?

I don't know how it will be in 4E, but in 3E every kingdom had quite a lot more firepower than the dragon.
Taking over villages is fine, taking over cities, especially the ones which cast wizards which can craft items for you is quite hard even for old dragons.

 

[jaer]

I don't know how it will be in 4E, but in 3E every kingdom had quite a lot more firepower than the dragon.
Taking over villages is fine, taking over cities, especially the ones which cast wizards which can craft items for you is quite hard even for old dragons.

I thought part of the PoL concept was that there were no sprawling kingdoms anymore. Villages, yes, and towns, and cities, and even city-states, but that the idea of a unified group of people spreading over many towns and villages was pretty much done. There are many dangerous things lying in between the areas for there to be a unifying force.

An army might be able to defend itself from another army, but what level are the troops generally? The real question comes down to, what level is the most powerful NPC in an area? In Faerun, it was pretty darn high. In the generic setting, it looks like they are aiming lower. A spell-less dragon could concievably take over a city by sieging the place every few days for long enough. Sure the general might be a 15th level warlord, and the chief advisor a 13th lvl wizard, but when the regular army is 5th lvl fighters, a CR 15 brute dragon shouldn't have too much of a problem, especially if it burns the fields and homes of the neighboring country-side, reducing supplies and buchering the outlying populace.

I never considered it too difficult for a dragon to take over a town or hold a kingdom hostage with fear and strength...I just never ran a dragon that would want to do so.

It seems that the mastermind and conquering motif are still viable, they just aren't meant to be the norm. I don't know the Wyrmms of the North (was that the Faerun guide that talked about specific dragons?), but if they are mentioned by name, then most likely, these dragons are note-worthy for NOT being the normal versions of their species. Going above and beyond the typical dragon's actions is what makes great sages take note of their particular behavior.

I agree that costumization is important to be able to keep dragons fresh and interesting challenges for players, but I don't see that the loss of sorcerer spell-levels in any way reduces that if they gain unique special abilities (especially if at some point suppliments come out at give alternative abilities). I like that they will have things other than just attack, breath, wizard spells, something more unique to the creature. To me, that is much more interesting than simply picking over-used spells from an over-used list.

 

[Derren]

I thought part of the PoL concept was that there were no sprawling kingdoms anymore. Villages, yes, and towns, and cities, and even city-states, but that the idea of a unified group of people spreading over many towns and villages was pretty much done. There are many dangerous things lying in between the areas for there to be a unifying force.

We don't really know. While this is the premise of PoL there still can be big cities which are left from fallen empires (and there apparently were quite a lot of them in PoL). And in established campaign settings like FR you can't simply say that suddenly everyone is much weaker.

A spell-less dragon could concievably take over a city by sieging the place every few days for long enough. Sure the general might be a 15th level warlord, and the chief advisor a 13th lvl wizard, but when the regular army is 5th lvl fighters, a CR 15 brute dragon shouldn't have too much of a problem, especially if it burns the fields and homes of the neighboring country-side, reducing supplies and buchering the outlying populace.[/quote]

Spell-less dragons are very vulnerable to attrition. It can't flee from the attackers very well and it has to heal naturally while the defenders clerics can simply heal the warlord. Sooner or later the dragon would be weakened enough so that it has to break off the siege and then it is hunted.

I don't know the Wyrmms of the North (was that the Faerun guide that talked about specific dragons?), but if they are mentioned by name, then most likely, these dragons are note-worthy for NOT being the normal versions of their species.

Wyrms of the North is indeed a collection of dragons in FR (Sword Coast to be specific). And while some dragons are special many of them are just average members of their species.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20041201a

I agree that costumization is important to be able to keep dragons fresh and interesting challenges for players, but I don't see that the loss of sorcerer spell-levels in any way reduces that if they gain unique special abilities (especially if at some point suppliments come out at give alternative abilities). I like that they will have things other than just attack, breath, wizard spells, something more unique to the creature. To me, that is much more interesting than simply picking over-used spells from an over-used list.

I would rather customize dragons right from the beginning and get more options from every splatbook than having to wait for a 4E Draconomicon.
Also if you like it or not, there will be a power creep in 4E and there will be overpowered abilities. With spells, the dragons can have a counter to them if needed. Without them the DM has to "cheat" that the dragon survives that attack.

 

[Wolfspider]

I have no problems with dragons not innately having levels in wizard or the ability to cast traditional spells. I do think, though, that they should be innately very magical creatures, not just lizards that fly and have breath weapons. They should have senses without peer and armored hides that can turn aside even magical weapons. They should be able to beguile with their voices and curse those that are foolish enough to listen. They should be as intelligent as their age indicates, and very clever as well.

If dragons can't do these things, they they truly have been diminished in my view.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

The only "spell" I'd care to see on dragons is Alternate Form for transforming into a single player-race, or similar. Paranoid-Wizard-Combo 2A, I've got no interest in seeing in the statblock.

 

[jaer]

We don't really know. While this is the premise of PoL there still can be big cities which are left from fallen empires (and there apparently were quite a lot of them in PoL). And in established campaign settings like FR you can't simply say that suddenly everyone is much weaker.

Yeah, but they are supposedly making a lot of changes to it. Further, in a place such as Faerun, with so many power NPCs and with wizards tending to be the be-all, end-all of power, dragons would need magical power in order to survive at all. It seems that WotC is tuning down the power-level of wizards in general, which in turn, reduced the need for creatures like dragons to need magic in order to be powerful.

I suppose that is sort of an underlying point as to why I like the lack of natural spell-casting: wizard magic seems less powerful, so in turn, it seems less necessary for a creature to have magic in order to actually be powerful. In 3E, it is very difficult to have a potent BBEG without having some magic himself or magical alliances, unless he had a lot of magical immunity. I'm hoping to see the end of that. A 18th lvl wizard or cleric can challenge a 17th lvl party if given a few rounds to prep. I have never seen 18th lvl fighter, barbarian, or any other meeler do the same.

Spell-less dragons are very vulnerable to attrition. It can't flee from the attackers very well and it has to heal naturally while the defenders clerics can simply heal the warlord. Sooner or later the dragon would be weakened enough so that it has to break off the siege and then it is hunted.

Agreed. I am assuming, here, a certain amount of healing capability on the behalf of the dragon. After all, as a solo creature, it seems likely to have some way to heal. Even the buellete in the example healed a bit when it burrowed. If the dragon strikes out, at random, every few days to burn the town, terrorize the populace, lay waste to the guards, and battern the city walls, and it returns to various tatical resting place, it can still keep up enough destruction and damage to force some sort of take over. Or, at the very least, cull the army down enough to take out the few pesky high level NPCs and then go away to rest for a few days after such an encounter.

I would imagine there are several techniques a dragon could use under such condition to raze or over-take most small cities.

I would rather customize dragons right from the beginning and get more options from every splatbook than having to wait for a 4E Draconomicon.
Also if you like it or not, there will be a power creep in 4E and there will be overpowered abilities. With spells, the dragons can have a counter to them if needed. Without them the DM has to "cheat" that the dragon survives that attack.

Also agreed, but we don't know that there won't be some customization. The dragon section in the MM1 3E had a very large section detailing common attacks and extra feats and the like and giving info about feat selection and skills. I would not be surprised if the 4e MM did not have something similar along the lines of "if you are looking for additional powers for your dragon, you can consider swapping these in for the ones that are listed" and having a few extras there according to dragon level.

I also would not be surprised to see similar things in the DMG, such as an entire chapter on special abilities listed by appropriate creature level so that DMs have a guildline on what level of challenge some powers are. This would make it very easy to take the out-of-the-box lvl 12 black dragon, remove one of his powers, and add in a 12th lvl power from the list. Automatically customized, still the same number of combat options, and I didn't have to look but spells per day, spells known, and sift through pages of spells to find something approprite (or worse, always pick the same ones!).

Of course, I am an optomist!

 

[StarFyre]

Instead of regular wizard spellcasting

I think I will continue my 'unique spell listing' project I started, and now make a list of spells that make sense for dragons.

I did this for all Chronomancy spells I could find from all editions and put them into one unified list for our chronomancers (since chronomancy plays large parts in my cosmologies/universes/games)....also started that for wild mage as my friends char is a house ruled wildmage.

Ithink I'll do the same for all spells from the draconomicons and cult of the dragon and other sources that "make sense" to be spells for a dragon but won't be that useful for PCs.

If anyone would like this list, so that they can customize their 4E dragons a bit more with 'magic' but spells that make sense for dragons, but doesn't have access to those books, message me, and I can send the list over when I finish it....

Sanjay

 

[Propheous_D]

Dragons "needing" Rope Trick was actually FourthBears idea. I never said or intended that.
And the spells being silly? I guess in your gaming worlds dragons are extinct because every rogue worth his salt can swallow an silence and invisibility potion and kill the unprotected dragon in its sleep and grap the hoard (which no one can explain where it got it from).
The few remaining dragons are used as guard dogs by influental individuals who can use magic or their connections to shape the world around them, either politically or magically.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't dragons have rediculous blindsight abilities, scent, and similar detection abilities. So the rogue would not be able to sneak up on the dragon even with flight as the dragon could detect him by scent. Even if the Rogue could sneak up on the dragon he can't kill him in one round unless the dragon is really really weak.

The one thing in FR that I thought they should have kept on 3rd was that dragons in 2E only took 1/4 damage from physical attacks. This was stated to emphasize the fact that dragons in FR were a little more daunting.

Most of the stuff I read here is very dissapointing to say the least. Even with out shapeshift/polymorph a dragon would easily be able to acquire minions. Power seeks Power, and weakness seeks shelter in the presence of power. Dragons make powerful allies to anyone of power. In good kingdoms with good Dragons there would be those smart enough to seek the dragons councel if the dragon was interested, or even worship the dragon itself. In evil kingdoms dragons would rule, work with, or be dominated through strength by other powers. This is the nature of things.

As for getting messages to and from operatives that is so incredibly easy for all the reasons stated here. A good dragon who befriends the native dryads of the forest he resides in offering wisdom, and protection would have some of the best spies. An evil dragon who inhabits the swamp and is woshipped by the local Troll tribe as a totemic figure would make for more then an interesting set of lackies.

I find the need for people to use magic as an excuse for something to be "powerful" or to "survive" really is not that knowledgeable in the game, the literature, and needs to open their mind to how the world both fantastically and realistically works.

Dragons would use the concepts of social engineering and manipulation if evil, or simply use the benificial aspects of being a nice dragon and recognized for what one was in other cases.

The honest truth is that a known dragon is all ways a dead dragon. Dragons do not publicize thier lairs, and do not leave them ungaurded or in places were people can easily go. Thier minions may know the location but a smart evil dragon would not even let anyone but his most trusted minions whom would never see beyond the walls of his lair into it.

Lets not forget that simple is often best. A dragon who resides in the broken ruins of a volcanoe doesn't need a permanent entrance as he can make one and destroy one at his leisure using nothig more then brute force and claws. Let alone a breath weapon.

Please let us get over this argument of what things should and should not have. This is DnD if *YOU* believe its flavourful then add it, but I think there is more then enough arguements against why dragons don't need magic and I have not seen a ANY ONE SINGLE point that makes me think dragons even need a single level of Mage/Cleric.

I know though in my games Dragons will all ways have the ability to polymorph but this is my choice and how I like to see dragons.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I think that Derren's primary concern (or at least those he voiced that inspired the creation of this separate thread) seems to be based on one specific problem. The potential problem is that removing spell casting classes from monsters that are often used as the primary villains in adventures will reduce the durability and usefulness of those monsters in that role. The secondary concern is "Without general purpose spellcasting, how are 4th edition dragons able to do all of the 'dragon-y' things they normally do outside of combat, such as scry, or trap and create their lairs.

For the first aspect of this problem, I am sure that dragons are being combat tested quite thoroughly. I would not worry much about spells like Protection from Element spells making dragons ineffective. One of the examples cited in the Monsters and Worlds thread specifically mentioned the more powerful dragons being able to strip away such protections. On top of that, I suspect that entering melee will be much more viable for these monsters, given the ability to sustain hundreds of points of damage and move PC's about as was demonstrated in the "Party vs Massive Red Dragon" example released a few months ago.

In any event, I am sure that the designers are making sure that when a dragon is rated as being a suitable challenge for adventurers of Level X in combat, that the claim can be taken at face value, at least until the game is released and it can be proven wrong in play. I suspect that the "Scry and Fry" tactics that make high level games difficult for Dm's are being addressed globally, so I do not think that knowing your going up against a Red Dragon is going to be that much easier simply because you know you should have Protection from Fire handy. I do not think we have been told anything that should have us too worried about the ability of a Dragon to protect its lair / kill intruders.

I do think that the question of out of combat capabilities is a reasonable one though, particularly for things like Scrying and Social encounters. Having some means to track your foes down and seek revenge may not be necessary for Dragons, but it is necessary for Villains. It would suck if the ability to use a Dragon as a primary villain in an adventure or campaign were removed simply because there was no way to add such capabilities to a monster that was more balanced than slapping PC levels on top of a monster and trying to work out the CR / XP value. If I want to let my Dragon use some advanced divination, I would like to do so without throwing 13 or so levels of a spell casting class onto it.

END COMMUNICATION