Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And according to WotC new Tier System, saving villages is "heroic" meaning suitable for heroes from level 1-10. So if dragons are only usable to threaten villages then they are de facto low level monsters as paragon PCs are supposed to go against greater threats.

At the heroic tier, you fight the young dragon that still has to establish himself. He has just started attacking a few villages and pressing them into his serve. The PCs intervene and take him out.

Unfortunately, there are older Dragons around, and the adventurers in their region failed to stop them.
These are the Dragons you encounter in the paragon tier. You might stumble "accidently" on them while you're investigating a dragon-loving cult that threatens the safety of your local kingdom. Or you know there is a Dragon in charge of the invading armies that want to conquer the PCs favourite kingdom.

There are some Dragons that where successful in their conquest, succesful enough to become worshipped as gods. This Dragon's lair is no longer on the Material Plane, but instead the Dragon has taken an abandoned Astral Dominion of a forgotten god and made it his new home. Due to his quasi-god status, many lesser Dragons worship him or at least allied him.
Some Dragons weren't that succesful, and they needed more help, turning to the Devils. Well, they got their deal, and they felt pretty good about it, but somehow, they still ended up in Hell. But at least not as a simple minion, but instead of a powerful ally of an Archfiend. (And which Archfiend wouldn't want a fearsome Dragon at his side? Or was it the other way around?)

 

[FourthBear]

Actually, it sounds as though the vast majority of your complaints would be solved not by giving all dragons spellcasting power, but giving all dragons Alternate Form into a humanoid form. If you feel that humanoid mastermind villains don't need to have spellcasting powers, just allow all dragons to become humanoid. It's a much more elegant solution that giving all dragons sorceror levels or such, IMO.

As to issues with minions, again, if spellcasting makes a character so potent that they are now to be considered the BBEG, even if they're working for a dragon, then spellcasting is far, far too potent. All BBEGs should be spellcasters, if that's the case. The game should be explicitly designed that way. I hope 4e works to eliminate this, frankly.

<Snip>
So I have always balance the off combat abilities of a dragon with its power level? No thanks. I rather have in build spellcasting for dragons which I can use anyway I want. Or at least give the dragon rituals (out of combat spells only).

No, actually my point is the exact opposite. You *don't* need to balance off combat abilities in a monster or NPC. You can just add these abilities to them as your world building sees fit. Because they don't influence their immediate power during a combat confrontation, there's no need for them to be detailed in the stat block or detailed the same way the combat relevant power need to be. This is why I don't feel they need to be made standard for all dragons in the Monster Manual. If they are there to justify plot points and world-building issues, then they should be left up to the DM. If you declare that all dragons are spellcasters, then you've just bloated up the stat blocks for every dragon generated in your campaign for your entire future work. The reason I am concerned by the number of magical abilities that are named that are "necessary" for dragons to be masterminds is power and stat bloat. Further, as noted by others in this thread, there are a fair number of people whose world building *doesn't* include having dragons as spellcasters.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

What are those mysterious messengers who are in contact with those important people doing in such a wild area which apparently doesn't contain anything. That just begs for a closer look (not only into the area but also what messages are cerried and who is receiving them).

Two things... First, this is of course assuming that the PCs spot the messangers first (as opposed to discovering the messages themselves on a newly dead guys desk and also are not aware that there is even a dragon in the area. What are the PCs doing in the area with "nothing" to be able to discover the messengers in the first place?

Second, the party may very well want to follow the messengers to learn more about who/what the minions are working for. This will just build up the dragon as a BerBerEerD (Bigger Badder Eviler Dragon) since the PCs will have been working on the case longer and there will be a more complex story since they know about the messangers, conspirators and the Evil Plot. I see this as a very good thing.

When the minions must do everything then they are the BBEG, not the dragon. Do you really want a kobold cleric to be in charge of a horde of kobolds with a dragon as guard dog?

Wait... What?

Isn't that what a minion is? A lacky who does something so the BBEG doesn't have to? If a draogn is trying to keep itself safe and not risk exposure of any kind (as I get the impression you want it to - I could be wrong) then of course it will have minions do everything. That's what minions are for - to do things and to die horribly so the main villain can be lazy and safe. If the BBEG needs to do everything then what's the point of having minions?

Also kobolds make very bad messengers as they can't move freely in most societies.
Dragonborn are a bit better because they are more accepted. But you still have to answer where those minions live, what they eat, where they get their resources and equipment from, etc.

Depends entirely on the society in question. If it's a swamp based city -> kobold. If they have to go through sewers -> kobold. If they have to walk through city steets unnoticed -> not kobold. A sufficently powerful Evil Guy could easily have access to both types.

They must be if they are only good for attacking small villages. Saving villages are adventure for heroic 1-10 level adventurers. higher level adventurers have something better to do than to save a small village from a dragon. They save big cities or even kingdoms and maybe even wander the planes.

So higher level PCs aren't allowed to save small villages? There are plenty of reasons why a higher level dragon would be attacking a smaller village: from it being a small piece of a plot hatched by a higher mastermind (so the 15th level critter is it itself a minion) to the fact that the small village isn't all it seems (sitting on top of a gold mine or a mostly forgotten tomb of a powerful wizard that the dragon has learned about) to the comedic value of the fact that it's a very lazy dragon and doesn't want to get shot at by the city's catapults.

 

[Derren]

Instead of talking back and forth without conclusion why do you not simply prove me wrong?
I opened a thread where you can post a sample intrigue under the assumption that the dragon has no magic.
If several people can come up with working, nonmagical intrigues (see rules in this thread) I will admit defeat.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3987718#post3987718

 

[jaer]

You talk about dragons being able to socialize...it depends what society you are refering to and also how the dragon attempting these socialization efforts. A city of dragonborn might have no problem with a dragon showing up in the local Tuesday Market to attempt to trade and sell some goods! The younger, smaller dragons would have no problem doing so.

Then there is the minion speak - again, looking at 3e for examples, a CR 15 red dragon was a 7th lvl caster. If it had a 10th lvl wizard and cleric minion, both of these had better casting and more spell choices than the dragon, but even if they joined forces, they did not have the power to take over the dragon's lair and they, as an encounter for the PCs, still didn't over shadow the BBEG dragon. Basically, in this case, the magical power necessary to ward and protect the dragon are so low scale, having minions do it does automatically mean they are powerful minions.

Moving forward to 4e. BBEG dragon can once more have minions powerful enough to do magic for him, but still be considerably weeker than the dragon powerwise.

And as for how the dragon get's it's business done:

Dragon had kobold minions. They worship him as a god and for generations have carved out a home near his lair, building traps and secret passages. The are low on the dragon's notice, but they amuse him, and again, for generations, their presence has eased his needs and brough him some wealth. Only a few have ever actually been to the dragon's lair - the tribal chief, the shaman, and the mystic are the only ones to whom the knowledge of the secret road is given. They go their monthly to pay homage to the dragon, but there is also a way the dragon can summon them, should it require them sooner (drum, gong, bellow, breath fire down a certain chamber so that smoke rises from the sacred tunnel).

The dragon, also, has challenged and dominated several orc tribes in the area. Being that the chief is the strongest and best, and being chief requires defeating the old chief in combat, the dragon had no problem doing so. It is now chief of a few orc tribes. It uses the kobolds to communicate with the orcs - it does not want the orcs knowing where it lairs, and the kobolds use all manner of long and secret tunnels, too narrow for orcs, when entering and leaving the lair. Even if the orcs tracked the kobolds back to one of these entrances, it's too small for the orcs to use and well trapped, and the passage will only take it to the kobold's lair. From there, the orcs would still need to transverse the numerous caverns inside to find the dragon, and all of them have been well trapped over the years.

The dragon then took over the hobgoblins that were setting up defenses in the ruined castle near by. This was, in fact, very easy. The dragon organized the orcs to lay siege to the place, and "negotiated" with the leader. Once again, the kobolds are the direct go-between, and there is no way the hobgoblins could muster an assault against the dragon just as the orcs could not. Besides, if the either force tried, the dragon would have the other wipe them out.

The dragon now has orc minions, hogoblin minions, and the trusted kobold minions. It's lair is gaurded by the kobolds and the traps they have set (and a few magic ones to boot, being there are a few low level casters amongst them). Between the casters of these races, it would be easy enough to have a few talisments created so that the dragon could magically communicate with the warlords of the orcs and hogoblins when direct and immediate command was needed, but mostly, it relies on kobold messengers.

Should the dragon wish to infultrate more civilized society, there are ways to go about it. Sure, the kobolds, hobgoblins, and orcs might not be able to move about freely in the city, but the wererats in the sewers can, and there are ways to garner their support. From there, humans can easily be swayed into service.

None of these minions out-shine the dragon as the BBEG and they provide all the services and protection the dragon needs. It can have them make a couple magic items it cannot, but it does not require these for use.

I think most dragons will be set up to not be these types of over-lords; I think they are being taken back to the power-house gold-hoarders that do not seek socialization and that do not want minions, and try not to influence the world around them except to collect treasure and feed (and that alone makes them dangerous and threats to the surrounding areas). But should a DM wish to make them The Threat, I don't see that magic is necessary to do so, and I don't think that if a dragon needs some minions for magically supported defenses, that that in any way implies the minions are anywhere close to the dragon's power. Yes, they can do things the dragon cannot, but that does make them inherently more powerful or more dangerous to the PCs.

 

[jaer]

Instead of talking back and forth without conclusion why do you not simply prove me wrong?
I opened a thread where you can post a sample intrigue under the assumption that the dragon has no magic.
If several people can come up with working, nonmagical intrigues (see rules in this thread) I will admit defeat.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3987718#post3987718

Posted while I was constructing my last remabling post. Sounds like fun.

 

[Derren]

This is a nice writeup. You might want to post it in my "challenge" thread by expanding the part about the wererats. But don't forget that sending is a 4th level spell requiring a 7th level cleric or 9th level wizard (10 for sorcerers). And that you need materials to craft magical items.

But in the end its all speculation as we don't know what magic will be capable of in 4E. Maybe WotC will completely neglect the non combat part and there will be no spells which I think are necessary for overlord dragons (Its not that unthinkable). if that is the case I will be seriously disappointed.

 

[Professor Phobos]

Do the 3e demographics really establish that any city is going to be powerful enough to scrag a dragon with no problem?

Because that is lame.

 

[Derren]

Do the 3e demographics really establish that any city is going to be powerful enough to scrag a dragon with no problem?

Because that is lame.

It depends on the age of the dragon but generally cities are strong enough to repel or pose a serious thread to most dragons., With the "20 always hits" rule, 500 level1 archers each firing a +1 arrow /greater magic weapon) will score enough hits on any dragon to kill it. And that doesn't even take the level 14+ characters into account which live in a typical D&D city.

 

[Raduin711]

They have a name for that. It's called GURPS.

That is strikingly unhelpful.