Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[takasi]

As I implied in my first post, and everyone seems to ignore...

Dragons have treasure.

Magic items are treasure.

Magic items can do things casters can do.

Why do dragons need to be casters?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Spell-less dragons are very vulnerable to attrition. It can't flee from the attackers very well and it has to heal naturally while the defenders clerics can simply heal the warlord. Sooner or later the dragon would be weakened enough so that it has to break off the siege and then it is hunted.

The important thing is to remember that inspiring fear doesn't require killing the Warlord and his loyal guardians. If a Dragon wants to terrorize a village or city, he attacks the weak. He burns the fields, attacks caravans and lays waste to the cities market place. If the Warlord appears, the Dragon just breathes once at him, shouts a threat and flies away. The Warlord will at least need to make a compromise with the Dragon. Or he has to find someone that can hunt the Dragon down for him.

 

[jaer]

As I implied in my first post, and everyone seems to ignore...

Dragons have treasure.

Magic items are treasure.

Magic items can do things casters can do.

Why do dragons need to be casters?

In 3e, to use caster items, such as staves, wands, and scrolls, one needs either to be a spell caster or to have UMD. Dragons were caster already, and so could use them.

In 4e, we know wands and staves aren't working the same way as they did in 3e. They might be spell holders, true, but they have something else going on. We don't know that there are magic items that duplicate the spells wizards and clerics cast. There might not be.

In that regard, we have no way of knowing if a dragon can a) use magic items at all or b) use magic items to duplicate the spell effects it no longer has because it isn't a caster. Simply saying a dragon has magic items as treasure in it's possession no longer implies it has access to magical good that can "do things casters can do."

Honestly, we don't even know what casters can do! There could be no Alarm spell anymore or things of the Move Earth, Stone Shape, or Fire Trap or other such things with which a dragon might have previously used to craft and protect it's lair.

We've spent all this time discussing how a spell-less dragon could communicate with minions, manipulate things around him, and create and defend his lair with traps and wards and such...and we never even discussed the possibility that a full-spellcapable dragon might not be able to do these things either!

 

[FourthBear]

I do think that the question of out of combat capabilities is a reasonable one though, particularly for things like Scrying and Social encounters. Having some means to track your foes down and seek revenge may not be necessary for Dragons, but it is necessary for Villains.
END COMMUNICATION

My primary concern here is the conflation of out-of-combat abilities and spellcasting. That mundane methods of creating traps, communicating with allies and otherwise working as a villain are being roundly rejected as impotent and ineffective if they don't involve the villain having direct spellcasting power. Is spellcasting power necessary for villains? If so, why do we even detail villains *without* spellcasting power? We should just give it to all villains. For that matter, we should give spellcasting power to all PCs, if they have any ambitions to running an organization and having a base.

As to the second point of worries about having difficulties in adding magical abilities to dragons, I don't see *how* 4e (or any edition) could make it difficult to add magical power to an enemy. If you want a dragon who can scry out opponents, just write that in its description when you create the enemy. What's to prevent you? If you want to give it the spellcasting power of a 10th level wizard, go ahead. Poof, it's done! And if you're worried about unbalancing the opponent, shouldn't you already have taken this into account before you decided to add the ability?

 

[Campbell]

If I want to let my Dragon use some advanced divination, I would like to do so without throwing 13 or so levels of a spell casting class onto it.

Why would you need to add levels of a spell casting class onto the dragon if you want to be able to use advanced divination ? If the divination is thematically appropriate for a given dragon why not just give it the abilities it needs rather than tacking on a bunch of levels of spell casting with all the superfluous junk that goes along with it?

 

[Stogoe]

The off-screen 'what does a dragon do out of combat' stuff doesn't need to be in the combat stat block. To me, rules for how a dragon digs out a hole and threatens a village and gathers his hoard are of the least importance.

 

[Sitara]

IMo they are taking Dragons back to where they belong, the dungeons. That is, Dragons were always the uber ultimate BBEg of dungeons who you encounter in the final room after 20 levels of hacking. Then you kill it and take its loot, able to finally retire after that.

later editions for some reason made dragons into these ridiculous masterminds, which makes no sense since dragons only hoard treasure for its own sake (i.e. like a raven takes shiny things). Dragons should have little to no interest in mortal affairs.

Thus 4E seems to be bringing dragons back to their roots (i.e. putting the dungeon back in the dragon, and the dragon back in the dungoen ) Dragons will not be critters to kill in your games and thier loot will be yours to take. For epic campaing with evil masterminds...well thats when you turn to class-leveled humanoid opponents, Yuan-Ti, Vampires, Death-Knights, Liches, Demons etc etc.

 

[Derren]

Those help...but it's still a giant, scary friggin' lizard that can eat villages, right?

I want to add something about this sort of argument. Yes, dragons can destroy villages. If they can also destroy cities is unknown but probably not as cities are very well defended including several adventurers.

And according to WotC new Tier System, saving villages is "heroic" meaning suitable for heroes from level 1-10. So if dragons are only usable to threaten villages then they are de facto low level monsters as paragon PCs are supposed to go against greater threats.

Also agreed, but we don't know that there won't be some customization. The dragon section in the MM1 3E had a very large section detailing common attacks and extra feats and the like and giving info about feat selection and skills. I would not be surprised if the 4e MM did not have something similar along the lines of "if you are looking for additional powers for your dragon, you can consider swapping these in for the ones that are listed" and having a few extras there according to dragon level.

I am not sure but I heard that, for the first time in D&D history, dragons will have a fixed statblock. But that could be a unfounded rumor.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't dragons have rediculous blindsight abilities, scent, and similar detection abilities. So the rogue would not be able to sneak up on the dragon even with flight as the dragon could detect him by scent. Even if the Rogue could sneak up on the dragon he can't kill him in one round unless the dragon is really really weak.

Dragons do not have scent and blindsense goes only 60 ft. far. And even if the DM rules that the blindsense will wake a dragon when someone enters the radius the adventurers can still set up themselves around the dragon and prepare so that the dragon does not have a chance anyway.

Dragons would use the concepts of social engineering and manipulation if evil, or simply use the benificial aspects of being a nice dragon and recognized for what one was in other cases.

The honest truth is that a known dragon is all ways a dead dragon. Dragons do not publicize thier lairs, and do not leave them ungaurded or in places were people can easily go. Thier minions may know the location but a smart evil dragon would not even let anyone but his most trusted minions whom would never see beyond the walls of his lair into it.

And how would the dragon use this "social engineering"? How would it manipulate others? Without magic to send messages or alter its form it can't talk with persons of power without revealing its nature. Even when it uses minions this can be quite hard (Try to manipulate someonw by sending a kobold as messanger.
So to affect the world the dragon has to reveal itself if it has no magic. And as you said a known dragon is a dead dragon. Also minions would be a huge achilles heel in this case. They are either weak to be easily defeated and interrogated or strong and a threat for the dragon (running the show).

I think that Derren's primary concern (or at least those he voiced that inspired the creation of this separate thread) seems to be based on one specific problem. The potential problem is that removing spell casting classes from monsters that are often used as the primary villains in adventures will reduce the durability and usefulness of those monsters in that role. The secondary concern is "Without general purpose spellcasting, how are 4th edition dragons able to do all of the 'dragon-y' things they normally do outside of combat, such as scry, or trap and create their lairs.

I have no problem with what you call "primary concern" If the dragon is strong enough it would not need spells (especially as 4E spells will be weaker than in 3E). I am only a bit concerned that after some time a splatbook comes out which has a overpowered ability in it which the dragon is defensless against without magic (Think forcecage or shivering touch)
The "Secondary Concern" is really my primary one. Without magic dragons have no real way to interact with the world on a large scale (to be a paragon or epic adversary). Sure the DM could simply give dragons all what they need but imo those out of combat abilities should be statted in teh MM (in a separate entry/statblock) because it gives monsters a better defined place in the world and might inspire the DM. You can still rule 0 it if you don't like those ooC abilities.

As I implied in my first post, and everyone seems to ignore...

Dragons have treasure.

Magic items are treasure.

Magic items can do things casters can do.

Why do dragons need to be casters?

The dragons magic items have the tendicy to become the PCs magic items. So when you give dragons lots of magical items you later have the problem that the PCs have too much magical gear.

In that regard, we have no way of knowing if a dragon can a) use magic items at all or b) use magic items to duplicate the spell effects it no longer has because it isn't a caster. Simply saying a dragon has magic items as treasure in it's possession no longer implies it has access to magical good that can "do things casters can do."

Thats also a good point

Honestly, we don't even know what casters can do! There could be no Alarm spell anymore or things of the Move Earth, Stone Shape, or Fire Trap or other such things with which a dragon might have previously used to craft and protect it's lair.

That would be the worst case scenario and imo a very big disadvantage for 4E. I don't want three books full of combat rules. i also want utility abilities which makes sense so that I can run adventures which don't revolve around hack and slash.

My primary concern here is the conflation of out-of-combat abilities and spellcasting. That mundane methods of creating traps, communicating with allies and otherwise working as a villain are being roundly rejected as impotent and ineffective if they don't involve the villain having direct spellcasting power. Is spellcasting power necessary for villains? If so, why do we even detail villains *without* spellcasting power? We should just give it to all villains. For that matter, we should give spellcasting power to all PCs, if they have any ambitions to running an organization and having a base.

Villians need some way to interact with its world except pure combat (except you want things like teh Tarrasque or an Elder Evil). Magic is just one way to do that so it isn't strictly necessary (although in 3E magic was so powerfull that at higher level you were nothing without magic).
The problem is that because of the lifestyle, society and physical characteristics of dragons they can't use the other ways to influence the world at all. Personally doing things in a city is nearly impossible for them as is crafting things itself.
They only can do it through minions amd magic where magic is the prefered method because Minions will soon take over the whole show (considering what minions need to do for dragons there must be some quite powerful minions among them. And then why do you need the dragon?)
Also having a lot of minions needs a lot of logistic. Where do those minions get their equipment and food from? Where do they live? what do they do in their free time? I don't simply throw some kobolds into a dragon lair and be done with it, I want this question to be answered in my adventures. Thats why I can't simply add some minions with an off thought.

As to the second point of worries about having difficulties in adding magical abilities to dragons, I don't see *how* 4e (or any edition) could make it difficult to add magical power to an enemy. If you want a dragon who can scry out opponents, just write that in its description when you create the enemy. What's to prevent you? If you want to give it the spellcasting power of a 10th level wizard, go ahead. Poof, it's done! And if you're worried about unbalancing the opponent, shouldn't you already have taken this into account before you decided to add the ability?

So I have always balance the off combat abilities of a dragon with its power level? No thanks. I rather have in build spellcasting for dragons which I can use anyway I want. Or at least give the dragon rituals (out of combat spells only).
And I want to have a coherent world. Giving monsters arbitrary powers without explanation doesn't fit my style of DMing. I rather take a different monster than planned which has the abilities required by my adventure than rule0 the monster to have that ability.
Also when I see the out of combat abilities from a monster I might be inspired or at least knew how this monster fits into the world. Imo the sentence "This dragon can cast spell from teh trickster domain" is much more useful to me than having no informations at all. And if I don't like the trickster domain or spellcasting dragons in general I can still change it. As you see, spelling out out of combat in the MM does in no way restrict the DMs. Actually it makes teh DMs job easier there is always the change that teh DM likes those abilities and does not have to change them. When those information is lacking the DM must always make something up.

 

[Green Knight]

And how does the dragon keep contact with those agents and spies? With carrier pigeons? Or having them constantly go to and from his secret lair and hope that no one will wonder what they are doing there?

Dragons don't lair in populated areas, so unless the FBI's got the dragon under surveillance, no one's going to notice a couple of minions running about. Nevermind that there're numerous ways to avoid getting noticed. Secret passages, for instance. If you're going to go to the trouble of having a secret lair, then a secret lair with an exit far away from the lair is to be expected.

No. Sending and Message spells are the answer.

Having minions handy is a better answer. And if you're so hellbent on using Sending or Message spells, then hey, have a minion who can cast those spells.

As for minions, Kobolds are a prime choice. They practically worship dragons. They're small and stealthy, and they're also very skilled at building traps. Because of their size, they can squeeze into secret tunnels that're to small for most PC races, and their Darkvision allows them to see just fine in unlit tunnels. And to top it off, they make for talented Sorcerers. And there you have it. A perfect minion race. You can throw in Dragonborn, too, with 4E.

And according to WotC new Tier System, saving villages is "heroic" meaning suitable for heroes from level 1-10. So if dragons are only usable to threaten villages then they are de facto low level monsters as paragon PCs are supposed to go against greater threats.

Dragons as "low level monsters"? You really think that's going to be the case?

 

[Derren]

Dragons don't lair in populated areas, so unless the FBI's got the dragon under surveillance, no one's going to notice a couple of minions running about. Nevermind that there're numerous ways to avoid getting noticed. Secret passages, for instance. If you're going to go to the trouble of having a secret lair, then a secret lair with an exit far away from the lair is to be expected.

What are those mysterious messengers who are in contact with those important people doing in such a wild area which apparently doesn't contain anything. That just begs for a closer look (not only into the area but also what messages are cerried and who is receiving them).

Having minions handy is a better answer. And if you're so hellbent on using Sending or Message spells, then hey, have a minion who can cast those spells.

As for minions, Kobolds are a prime choice. They practically worship dragons. They're small and stealthy, and they're also very skilled at building traps. Because of their size, they can squeeze into secret tunnels that're to small for most PC races, and their Darkvision allows them to see just fine in unlit tunnels. And to top it off, they make for talented Sorcerers. And there you have it. A perfect minion race. You can throw in Dragonborn, too, with 4E.

When the minions must do everything then they are the BBEG, not the dragon. Do you really want a kobold cleric to be in charge of a horde of kobolds with a dragon as guard dog?
Also kobolds make very bad messengers as they can't move freely in most societies.
Dragonborn are a bit better because they are more accepted. But you still have to answer where those minions live, what they eat, where they get their resources and equipment from, etc.

Dragons as "low level monsters"? You really think that's going to be the case?

They must be if they are only good for attacking small villages. Saving villages are adventure for heroic 1-10 level adventurers. higher level adventurers have something better to do than to save a small village from a dragon. They save big cities or even kingdoms and maybe even wander the planes.
(See http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=216163)

When dragons are supposed to be encounters worthy for paragon or maybe even epic adventurers, they must be able to do some paragon or ewic stuff. Threatening a small village is not enough.