Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Derren]

Excuse me, what are you trying to say here? "Same Difference"? What's the difference between "changing" and "making up" in this context?

Changing: I pay for rules which I might not like so I change them. Or maybe I am happy with them.
Make up: I pay for a book which says me to make things up.

So...anyone who's a BBEG of the entire campaign and a mastermind needs to have built in innate spell casting to be effective? Because that's what you seem to be implying here.

Not every BBEG (but in a high magic world, having magic is nearly a necessity). But dragons have the disadvantage that unlike human BBEGs they do not live in a society which they can use to get what he wants. Without magic, dragons would need minions for everything except simple destruction work, and that is not really BBEG material.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Because thats how D&D dragons are? Why do dragons have breath weapons and trolls have regeneration? Why can Rust Monsters corrode metal?

In D&D 4, not anymore! Except of course in campaigns that use house-ruled or variant Dragons from 3rd party publishers. (Which, by the way, means that 3rd party publishers can do even more interesting things for D&D then they used to do - 3E feel, 4E rules, so to say)

But as dragons are unable to really do something big in the world without the help of magic I don't see a reason to not give it to them, especially as dragons always had magic in previous editions.

I much rather have some predefined slots for spells which I can fill or not than to make every dragon a wizard just so that he can do something else than sitting in its cave and wait to be slain.

Okay, I guess this will be the last time I repeat myself, before I wait until I have something new to add:

It is plain wrong that Dragons need magic to do something big in the world.
If a mortal man can create nations and topple kings, a Dragon can do it too. A Dragon is capable of speaking with humanoids, and he certainly has a few tricks up his sleeve to make them do what he want. If he can't do a thing on his own, he can find someone who can.

Even more important, the fact that Dragons need to rely on others make it more likely that PCs have to interact with them at all. If the Dragon is the ruler of a region, you can ask him for aid. If he is oppressing a region so he can get the slaves he needs to make his lair comfortable and safe for him, this gives incentive for the PCs to attack him in the first place.
If the Dragon is using people, some people will benefit from it (maybe the PCs want the same), and some people won't like him (the PCs have to stop it).

If he is sitting in his lair casting spells for most tasks, there is little reason to interact with him - until the point where the kings archmage decides that the Dragon constantly scrying on the king might be a bad idea, casts Nondetection or Mindblank and sends a group of heroes to slay the Dragon. Would have been nice to have some agents and spies around to watch out for this kind off stuff, or even delay, possibly stop the heroes before they wreck the Dragons lair or kill him, but well, an Alarm spell will probably do... not.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Changing: I pay for rules which I might not like so I change them. Or maybe I am happy with them.
Make up: I pay for a book which says me to make things up.

Still don't get it.
Are you saying there is a difference between:
"Hmm, Sorcerors cast spells. Dragons do it the same way. But my Dragons should study magic, so they shall cast spells like Wizards!"
to:
"Hmm, Wizards can use Rituals to cast certain spells. Dragons can't use them normally, because they're not Wizards. Let's ignore that, my Dragons get access to the same Rituals as Wizard do."

It's not like there are no spellcasting rules in D&D 4. You don't have to make up entirely new rules just for Dragons to cast spells!

 

[Derren]

Would have been nice to have some agents and spies around to watch out for this kind off stuff, or even delay, possibly stop the heroes before they wreck the Dragons lair or kill him, but well, an Alarm spell will probably do... not.

And how does the dragon keep contact with those agents and spies? With carrier pigeons? Or having them constantly go to and from his secret lair and hope that no one will wonder what they are doing there?
No. Sending and Message spells are the answer.

Still don't get it.
Are you saying there is a difference between:
"Hmm, Sorcerors cast spells. Dragons do it the same way. But my Dragons should study magic, so they shall cast spells like Wizards!"
to:
"Hmm, Wizards can use Rituals to cast certain spells. Dragons can't use them normally, because they're not Wizards. Let's ignore that, my Dragons get access to the same Rituals as Wizard do."

It's not like there are no spellcasting rules in D&D 4. You don't have to make up entirely new rules just for Dragons to cast spells!

In this context it is like:
Change: "Dragons can learn 5 rituals of this level...."
Now the player can fill this slots with whatever the dragon needs, ignore it as he doesn't need rituals or change the number of rituals the dragon has.

Make up:" Dragons fight like this.... "
No information about how dragons fit in the world. You have to make that up from the ground.

Overall it looks like.
Change: "This monster might fit into the world this or that way". You might use it or not.
Make Up: No information about ecology, monsters are pure combat stat block. if you want this monster to be something more than a encounter you have to make it up.

When rules for out of combat abilities of monsters exist there is a chance that you won't have to spend that time to make this stuff up or change it. You can pull out a monster from the book and assign it a role in your world. You might also be inspired by those abilities. "hey this monster has 10 ranks in Y. I can use it for..."
Without those rules most players will have no idea how this monster would fit in the world. Is it a monster which likes to corrupt other people? Or does it simply dominate them?. Sure you can make it up, but it will require time and I buy D&D books so that I don't have to spend that time.
And all this for 3-4 more monsters which I probably won't use anyway?

 

[D.Shaffer]

And how does the dragon keep contact with those agents and spies? With carrier pigeons? Or having them constantly go to and from his secret lair and hope that no one will wonder what they are doing there?
No. Sending and Message spells are the answer.

How are NON-Dragon BBEG's doing it? I think this is why so many people are having a disconnect with your views here. If other Big Bads can do it without being super-uber built in magic spellcasting creatures, why do dragons HAVE to have this in order to be a proper threat?

 

[FourthBear]

And how does the dragon keep contact with those agents and spies? With carrier pigeons? Or having them constantly go to and from his secret lair and hope that no one will wonder what they are doing there?
No. Sending and Message spells are the answer.

OK, now the dragon (and apparently all master villains) needs Silent Image, Alarm, Mage Hand, Rope Trick, warding spells against scrying, warding spells against teleportation, unnamed spells to create its lair, unnamed spells to create the traps in its lair and now Sending and Message spells to communicate with allies. My goodness, this list of necessary spells just grows and grows. How pathetic villains without spells to serve their every need look!

 

[Jedi_Solo]

And how does the dragon keep contact with those agents and spies? With carrier pigeons? Or having them constantly go to and from his secret lair and hope that no one will wonder what they are doing there?
No. Sending and Message spells are the answer.

All dragons have secret lairs?

I always thought that the ones that were arrogent didn't care (the dragon would eat anyone they didn't like anyway) and the (nonmagical) ones that did have secret lairs would have a randevouz location (either at sceduled times or the dragon would swing by that location while it went out to hunt for its mid-afternoon snack to see if a lacky was waiting for it).

Quite often dragon lair locations are known. The reason that the dragon isn't dead is because... well... it's a big nasty dragon that feeds off the corpses of everyone that has tried to kill it.

 

[jaer]

Derren - I understand your point, but have a couple questions for you:

If the MM had the line "Most dragons have the mental prowess and arcane ability to learn and use any rituals they can find," will that be counted as satisfacory for you?

Also, you mention the Alarm spell often. I am curious what other spells you feel dragons need to be safe and secure in a lair and how often dragons of such age make an appearance. As was noted, the CR 15 adult red dragon is a 7th lvl caster, which doesn't even give teleknesis for fine maniuplation or scrying for info. All this dragon really has is charm and suggestions for minions and alarm for lair protection, and a few other spells. Can they even ward against teleportation into their lair at this level? And any spell they cast was pretty easily dispelled by the party (14th lvl wizard vs a 7th lvl caster? That's a 4 or higher on 1d20 to dispel their protective magics).

If anything, it seems 3e dragons were lacking what you would think was necessary wizardly power as it was. I would say that they didn't even have the magical capabilities to properly carve our and protect a lair or control minions with their natural abilities.

IMO, I'd rather have a section detailing what the creature is like out of combat (the old ecology and society entries from 2nd edition) and have only combat abilities statted out. If it states in the book that red dragons are known for making powerful magical items and black dragons are fond of designing traps and planning out ambushes, I can come up with ways for them to do so on my own without a stat-block telling me spefically what they can manage outside of combat. This would further allow for each dragon to be different and have various implementations, rather than them all having the same basic powers as listed.

Further, that information should allow DMs to have the inspiration they need for crafting an adventure around the creature. In fact, I find that more inspiring then looking at a skill, feat, or ability list and trying to figure out how to work those in to something meaningful.

 

[Derren]

How are NON-Dragon BBEG's doing it? I think this is why so many people are having a disconnect with your views here. If other Big Bads can do it without being super-uber built in magic spellcasting creatures, why do dragons HAVE to have this in order to be a proper threat?

Which non dragon BBEG? A human? As carrier pigeons do not instantly flee from his presence and his hands are dexterous enough to tie a massage to their claws without splattering it all over the place he indeed might use them. Or he might simply walk into the city and meet his agents somewhere.
A dragon can't do those things.

OK, now the dragon (and apparently all master villains) needs Silent Image, Alarm, Mage Hand, Rope Trick, warding spells against scrying, warding spells against teleportation, unnamed spells to create its lair, unnamed spells to create the traps in its lair and now Sending and Message spells to communicate with allies. My goodness, this list of necessary spells just grows and grows. How pathetic villains without spells to serve their every need look!

I would appreciate it if you started to think about this issue instead of making this silly list without offering any alternatives or other constructive comments.
Tell me, how would a dragon stay in contact with its agents without compromising them?

Derren - I understand your point, but have a couple questions for you:

If the MM had the line "Most dragons have the mental prowess and arcane ability to learn and use any rituals they can find," will that be counted as satisfacory for you?

Its not optimal but it would do. Saying "Dragons of age X can cast rituals of level Y" would be very good.

Also, you mention the Alarm spell often. I am curious what other spells you feel dragons need to be safe and secure in a lair and how often dragons of such age make an appearance.

The Alarm spell is the only one which I think is a must.
Silent image can make nice pit traps (especially when the bottom of the pit is either very far down or filled with acid. Acid breathing dragons have also an advantage with digging).
Phantom trap can also be used rather cleverly, but is luxus rather than required. Explosive runes make nice traps which don't need preparations and Arcane Lock is also very useful.
For fine manipulation mage hand or a summon monster 1 must do.
The other spells, like scrying and sending would be too high for the dragon (but Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is a good substitution)
The best, and also very hard to get spell is Forbiddance.

Before the nerf, polymorph was also important as it allowed the dragon to get into towns unnoticed and do business there (maybe getting magic items for spells he can't cast?)

If anything, it seems 3e dragons were lacking what you would think was necessary wizardly power as it was. I would say that they didn't even have the magical capabilities to properly carve our and protect a lair or control minions with their natural abilities.

The spellcasting itself was not that impressive, that is correct. but it allowed teh dragon to take item creation feats which were much more valuable in combination with lair wards (Draconomicon)

 

[Guild Goodknife]

And it is not that it is strictly necessary to have magic to be "someone" (although in a high magic world like D&D not having magic as powerful and influental individual would be the exception).

So in your campaign world every king, crime lord, or otherwise leader is a spellcaster? And i really hope that all youre kings climp up their rope tricks when it's time for them to got to sleep...

But dragons are handicapped in an additional way because they don't live in any coherent society and can't even craft things for themselves (no opposable thumbs)
Where others can buy things or otherwise exploit the society they live in, the dragon can only use magic or minions.

But they can get the things they need, either through intimidation (think dragon demands stuff from a village or town it holfs hostage) or trade (if they're smart and wealthy enough). Some dragons are incredible intelligent, they can bully their minions or corrupt them with promises of treasure and power. Just like every other crimelord.

And to be a "good BBEG" the minions must be quite powerful, especially when they also should pose a threat to adventurers. In the end the minions will be the real BBEG because without them the dragon is helpless.

No, not every minion must be a powerful combatant. The sneaky kobold spies don't need to be great fighters, the craftfull trapmakers the dragon kidnapped don't need to known any swordsmanship, the dwarvish miners that build his lair are weak slaves, etc.
Maybe the dragon is allied with a powerful mage whom he promised knowledge and secrets only the old dragons knows anymore...
And don't forget, dragons are powerful combatants since their solo monster. They will be able to challenge a whole party of powerful adventurers on their own, so his wizard ally should think twice before he tries to double cross his partner in crime.