LOTR from a gamer's perspective

[shilsen]

Just a thought about the eagles getting to Mount Doom.

They can. We know they can. We know for an absolute, incontrovertible fact that they can. We know this, because they did it. They must have started into Mordor some time before the destruction of the Ring or Frodo and Samwise would have been toasted hobbits. There were no defenses, no aerial battles, nothing. At least as far as we know.

The eagles made it all the way to Mt Doom in time to pick up Frodo and his boyfriend.

Check the book. The chapter "The Field of Cormallen" specifically describes how Gandalf asks the eagles to carry him into Mordor after they have seen the fall of Sauron. So the eagles only enter Mordor after the destruction of the Ring, the fall of Barad-Dur and the elimination of the Ringwraiths.

 

[iwatt]

This

They can. We know they can. We know for an absolute, incontrovertible fact that they can. We know this, because they did it. They must have started into Mordor some time before the destruction of the Ring or Frodo and Samwise would have been toasted hobbits. There were no defenses, no aerial battles, nothing. At least as far as we know.

plus this

So the eagles only enter Mordor after the destruction of the Ring, the fall of Barad-Dur and the elimination of the Ringwraiths.

= The Giant eagles move at the speed of plot.

 

[Celebrim]

This



plus this



= The Giant eagles move at the speed of plot.

I'd say that by and large that is correct, since no one knows exactly how fast a giant Eagle can fly, JRRT certainly couldn't have calculated it.

However, I think a better case for 'speed of plot' can be made for Shadowfax, and even then if you assume that Shadowfax can gallop just a little faster than the average horse but instead of keeping it up for minutes at a time can keep it up all day, Shadowfax's feats of travel are - assuming you swallow those assumptions about a magical horse - 'reasonable'.

But back to the eagles, I don't have the map out to measure distances, but it can't be more than 100 miles straight line distance between the towers of the teeth and Mt. Doom. Assuming giant eagles can in fact fly faster than horses can gallop, they can leave the battle at the towers of the teeth and rescue the hobbits who are walking slowly away from a volcanic eruption in two hours or less. The real power of plot here is the answer to the question, "How slowly does a volcanic erruption proceed?" The answer is of course, "As slow as necessary to not roast the heroes." But in no way are we given to believe that mount doom is generating pyroclastic flows, since it seems to be a shield volcano of some sort, and if the lava flow it generates is viscous enough this 'reasonable'. The scene in the movie where the lava is only feet away from the hobbits is of course just Hollywood.

 

[iwatt]

IThe scene in the movie where the lava is only feet away from the hobbits is of course just Hollywood.

Or D&D. remember that you can stand right next to burning lava by the RAW, and not be exposed to face melting heat, or toxic fumes that would eat right through your lungs.

 

[Numion]

Check the book. The chapter "The Field of Cormallen" specifically describes how Gandalf asks the eagles to carry him into Mordor after they have seen the fall of Sauron. So the eagles only enter Mordor after the destruction of the Ring, the fall of Barad-Dur and the elimination of the Ringwraiths.

If the eagles were so unwilling to risk their behinds in the first place, why were they near the great battle to begin with? Spectator sports?

Only explanation is that they were there to see if humans needed help.

 

[Celebrim]

Or D&D. remember that you can stand right next to burning lava by the RAW, and not be exposed to face melting heat, or toxic fumes that would eat right through your lungs.

Not entirely true.

Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a -4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell...

Smoke Effects
A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.

Although the RAW doesn't explicitly say that the presence of lava creates extreme heat, I think it is implied and certainly the RAW don't perclude the presence of toxic fumes and flesh sheering heat, they just don't explicitly impose those things.

But I think you'd be perfectly justified by the rules in having characters within a certain distance from lava mean 1d6 lethal + 1d4 nonlethal (or save) + begin choking (or save) + begin asphixiating + clothing spontaneously combusts (or save).

 

[Celebrim]

Only explanation is that they were there to see if humans needed help.

More likely, Manwe - who has salient divine ability to see everything that happens on Middle Earth - sent them to provide help at the moment of triumph, precisely for the purpose of rescuing the hobbits (whose role as the chosen instruments of Illuvatar would have been clear to one that so well knows the mind of Illuvatar as Manwe). It's also probable that compassionate Varda, whose divine salient ability allows here to hear everything that happens on Middle Earth, had prompted Manwe to be ready to intervene to assist her vassal Olorin (Gandalf) once his great task had been completed.

The eagles are Deus ex Machina, and not merely in the literary sense. It's also highly probable that the eagles are Maiar that have taken on a body of flesh out of love of Middle Earth (or at least the decendents of such beings, much like Shelob is a decendent of Ungoliant), and are thus Gandalf's 'cousins' in spirit.

 

[iwatt]

Not entirely true.



Although the RAW doesn't explicitly say that the presence of lava creates extreme heat, I think it is implied and certainly the RAW don't perclude the presence of toxic fumes and flesh sheering heat, they just don't explicitly impose those things.

But I think you'd be perfectly justified by the rules in having characters within a certain distance from lava mean 1d6 lethal + 1d4 nonlethal (or save) + begin choking (or save) + begin asphixiating + clothing spontaneously combusts (or save).

You're right about the RAW of course. But IME, when PCs go into a red dragon's lair, having them choking and crisped to a burn just by approaching, would make for encounters not as fun. I want my heroes leaping from unmelted rock to unmelted rock, twirling and tumbling around until they can gain the higher ground. Cause it's ll about the higher ground.

 

[Someone]

More likely, Manwe - who has salient divine ability to see everything that happens on Middle Earth - sent them to provide help at the moment of triumph [...]

That's not exactly how it happens; the order is 1) Eagles arrive (a lot of them) and attack the nazgul 2) but before they can engage the nazgul are called by Sauron and speed towards mount doom (this must happen at the same time Frodo wears the ring). The will of Saron abandons the army at the black gate and the army of the west starts killing them 3) The ring is destroyed 4) Gandalf mounts of Gwaihir and along two other eagles march to rescue frodo.

It's reasonable to suppose we can add other two items: a) Gwaihir summons "all the vassals of the north mountains" and b) they take their time to arrive at the black gate. So they must have been sent much before anything was decided.

 

[Celebrim]

That's not exactly how it happens...So they must have been sent much before anything was decided.

I agree, of course. I'm assuming that Manwe and Varda are in a position to know ahead of time by virtue of thier wisdom and powers of observation when the critical moment will arrive, and that therefore Manwe will have his vassal Gwaihir muster his vassals (like a king informing a great lord to muster his knights) in a timely fashion so as to be ready at the right moment, much as King Theoden (being wise) had anticipated Denethor sending the red arrow and so had taken preparations for the muster before even the moment arrived.