LOTR from a gamer's perspective

[ruleslawyer]

Well, we got rid of the nazgul, now the air cavalry has to face at most some fell bests mounted by what? orcs? Gandalf killed a balrog, I suppose he can face that.

Probably not, actually. All the Beasts and "anti-aircraft" defenses have to do is kill the Eagle(s), leaving the Fellowship on foot in Mordor surrounded by tens of thousands of orcs. Gandalf cannot fight the armies of Mordor by himself, or he simply would have ridden out at the head of the Captains and invaded Mordor.

I see your point too, and you're right there. Still is a reson of why the air assault would have failed, not why they wouldn't have tried it; the chances of mount doom being guarded were the same if they travelled by air or if they succesfully snuck on foot without being seen or leaving any trace; remember that it took the eagles and fell beasts very little time to arrive from the black gate to mount doom, not enough IMO to send reinforcements.

That's not clear, actually. The Eye can probably see Eagles a good deal off; the rationale for a flying creature being as easily able to hide from Sauron's gaze as a sneaking pair of hobbits is pretty thin. While the idea of assembling a massed force of Eagles to distract Sauron's attention is a good one, it's not clear that a) there are all that many Eagles; b) that one could convince them to fly into the face of Mordor's defenses; or c) that they would be distracting enough for Sauron not to move to protect the Ring.

All of this, of course, with the additional caveat that without Gollum's presence, all would be lost anyway: Frodo would claim the Ring instead of throwing it into the fire, and he would become an instrument of Sauron's will.

Finally, the timing is off anyway. While the Nazgul may have been dispersed, Frodo was also injured and wandering into Shadow; by the time he was healed and ready to journey again, they well might have been mobile again... and right by the side of their master.

"Hobbit reserves"? Yeah, right. Bilbo and Frodo are pretty clearly stretched as it is to bear the Ring, and they have unusual strength of will even for hobbits. I can just see Otho Sackville-Baggins trying to resist the temptation to put the Ring on...

 

[ruleslawyer]

Are you sure you're a gamer?

You get a fleet of eagles who will approach from a different direction while an army marches on the Gates of Mordor. We know the ring can dominate someone, and we know hobbits are more resistant to magic, so we have multiple hobbits trained in secret watching the ring bearer in case he flips out and decides to go the dark side. They all have blindfighting, or blindsense or blindsight and maxed-out grappling. Screw this sneaking around crap. Gandalf gets his own white eagle, and so does Galadriel and Elrond. They deep-six the Nazgul - I mean, c'mon, these guys got chased off by a ranger with a sword and a torch - and hold off Sauron - who never actually leaves his tower, anyway - and Frodo either throws the ring in, or gets pitched bodily by his squad of Ring Destroyers bodily into the lava.

Problem solved.

I'm glad I don't let my players do this stuff.

Getting together the fleet of eagles, or an army that can actually pass through Osgiliath and make it anywhere *near* the Black Gate (remember, the Siege of Gondor hasn't happened yet, meaning that those forces are still hanging around, and they nearly triumphed even against Minas Tirith, which had a defender's advantage) is basically an impossibility. Fleets of eagles aren't there to be had for the taking. Custom-training hobbits in the skills of adventure is basically impossible; do you have commoners in your campaigns who walk around with blindsight and grappling?

Finally, if Gandalf actually *could* defeat the Nazgul and hold off Sauron in an open attack, he would. That's the entire REASON the Fellowship has to travel in secret.

 

[Someone]

Not quite true. The reason that the Captains of the West marched on the Black Gate was precisely to distract Sauron's attention from the Ring moving toward Mount Doom. There is a clear implication that as the Ring draws closer, Sauron (and the Nazgul) can sense its presence. Sauron is distracted by the battle of wills through the Palantir, and his attention focused on Gondor. A straight flight to Mordor wouldn't have allowed all that to evolve.

Not exact. Arsgorn marched to the north to fool Sauron into thinking they had the ring and amas an army big enough to crush them, pulling troops from mordor and easing Frodo's way. This is explicitly stated in he books, and if anything it implies that Sauron can't detect the ring, perhaps unless it's being used or worn.

I highly doubt that even Gwaihir would be able to pass the Black Gate and fly into Mordor without facing hordes of Winged Beasts

Sauron didn't have hordes of winged beasts, of else he'd have used them or at least being mentioned in the books. He had a very limited number of Fell Beasts, just enough for the nazgul and replace some losses.

siege weapons, and archers. The Eagles are clearly pretty good in a fight with orcs and the like, but I doubt they could withstand a massed defense.

Huh? The idea is to fly over the orcs, not through the orcs. Who cares about he black gate? If you are thinking on Mount Doom being heavily defended, tell me how it'd have changed for a footslogging party instead of a flying party.

I also think that Sauron would have all sorts of ability to mount a response if he sensed the eagle moving toward his beloved Orodruin. He certainly doesn't seem stupid.

Surely he had the means, but it's clear in the books that he never had a reason to. It was only in the last moment, when Frodo wore the ring, that Sauron finally was able to add 2 and 2 and deduct that what the good guys were trying to do all along, what the two hobbits his orcs captured not so long ago were trying to do, was to destroy the Ring. gandalf himeslf said that Sauron would never think on someone wanting to destroy the Ring, just using it to get rid of Sauron. What if they want to visit mount doom? There's nothing there but ash and hot lava. By the time an orc patrol had climbed the volcano, the ring would be history.

There's also an interesting theory that appears in some of the commentary around the LotR books: Namely, that Gandalf willingly takes the road to Moria because he knows that someone will have to deal with the Balrog sooner or later. It is quite possible that if the Fellowship had not braved Moria, the Balrog would be able to be summoned by Sauron to defend Mount Doom.

That's a... well, for Eric's grandma's sake, I'll just say that I have a pretty low opinion of that theory.

 

[molonel]

Great plan. Everyone knows how adventerous hobbits are, how common it is for them to leave their hobbit homes, and how little the amount of fuss you'd raise if a lot of them suddenly vanished.

A lot? Try half a dozen, max.

And nobody even knew or cared that hobbits existed. That's why Gandalf could walk away for decades at a time leaving a sought-after artifact basically laying in plain sight. If a half dozen - heck, a DOZEN of them - went missing, the world would neither know, nor care.

Oh, and did I mention their incredible physical stature and short time of training? Within a manner of weeks they'd surely be able to learn how to overcome the power of one of their own kind who has been infused with the strength of a dark godling.

Dark godling?

In case you didn't remember this, Frodo was overpowered by ONE hobbit at the end of the books, and his finger bitten off.

I think we read different books.

Fleet of Eagles? There aren't nearly that many.

Okay, a dozen. Tops. Better for flight and maneuverability.

Meanwhile, you haven't dealt with Saruman of Many Colors (obviously an Initiate of the Seven-Colored Veil, one of the most broken powerful wizard PrCs). He moves in on his own wyvern beastie, obliterates Gandalf the Gray (your level 5 wizard with a staff of Pyrotechnics), and Elrond (who has about the same power level as Gandalf), and takes the ring for himself.

Ah, but then the elder elves who never left the Blessed Land in the Silmarillion enter the fray! Saruman is merely a diminished Maiar, and falls before their might.

I win!

Oh, and the balrog and Moria orcs come into there somewhere as well. Along with the dragons and giants that were mentioned in the Hobbit.

But then I flip out my Manwe card, and Tulkas drops from the sky and bodyslams the balrog!

Ease up on the snippy.

But it's so tasty!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Not exact. Arsgorn marched to the north to fool Sauron into thinking they had the ring and amas an army big enough to crush them, pulling troops from mordor and easing Frodo's way. This is explicitly stated in he books, and if anything it implies that Sauron can't detect the ring, perhaps unless it's being used or worn.

I'm not disagreeing with you there, but the point is that Aragorn and Gandalf are clearly concerned not only with the orcs occupying the Plain of Gorgoroth, but with Sauron's gaze being diverted from Mordor's interior. That suggests that at the very least, he's canny enough to detect intrusions.

Sauron didn't have hordes of winged beasts, of else he'd have used them or at least being mentioned in the books. He had a very limited number of Fell Beasts, just enough for the nazgul and replace some losses.

Yes; "hordes" is an exaggeration. But even nine-plus would be plenty to slow down the Eagles.

Huh? The idea is to fly over the orcs, not through the orcs. Who cares about he black gate? If you are thinking on Mount Doom being heavily defended, tell me how it'd have changed for a footslogging party instead of a flying party.

Because the flying party is easy to spot. Simple. Eagles aren't recon planes; they can't fly above detection level because they need to breathe. A party that entered Mordor with Aragorn's guidance (it's pretty clear that he knows of at least one or two secret ways in) could sneak up to Orodruin without being detected... maybe.

Surely he had the means, but it's clear in the books that he never had a reason to. It was only in the last moment, when Frodo wore the ring, that Sauron finally was able to add 2 and 2 and deduct that what the good guys were trying to do all along, what the two hobbits his orcs captured not so long ago were trying to do, was to destroy the Ring. gandalf himeslf said that Sauron would never think on someone wanting to destroy the Ring, just using it to get rid of Sauron. What if they want to visit mount doom? There's nothing there but ash and hot lava. By the time an orc patrol had climbed the volcano, the ring would be history.

But once more, the issue is whether the Eagles would be stopped *before* they reached Mount Doom.

That's a... well, for Eric's grandma's sake, I'll just say that I have a pretty low opinion of that theory.

It's JRRT's himself... along with why Gandalf has the Dragon taken care of in the Hobbit.

 

[William drake]

Its about staying within bounds

We had an interesting conversation over the weekend about LOTR if you were running it as a RPG. This is not system-based, like talking about MERP or D&D or GURPS, but rather a discussion about how fiction works differently from a RPG.

The obvious solution was to fly the ring into Mordor on the backs of giant eagles. Quicker, faster, less dangerous.

What do you think?

True, but the work was a Book and not a Game. It was writen for depth, and story and the journey, for the fellowship. The world is lowmagic..verylow, so we dont know if Telaport, or anything else exists. In the book, Gandalf never really used a whole lot of magic, so you can't just assume he was holding back, I mean...why? Also, you have to take into account that the story is set up with alot of things that the readers dont know about. Yes eagles, if that was the way it would've been done, that's how Tolken would have writen it. I know he didn't give a reason, and no one in the party knew or thought to ask, but perhaps they knew better, I mean Elrond and everyother Power House charcter at that meeting wern't stupid, so in a lowmagic world, I mean, the Elves arn't in some ways, even close to as powerful as D&D Elves, so you can't think they just "Looked that plan or anyother plan over" you have to go with, that was the best option.

Also, if its ever a quick fix...then its stupid, and not very dangerous or dark at all.

Now someone said something about the Ring Wraits later. Remember, their not like those from D&D and so you can't compare the two. They are less powerful, but in a lowmagic world, they are some of the nastist things ever.

The whole problem with this is that everyone answering it is using things beyond the stories contraints, and that's what you have to deal with, or not, when runing a game based on a Book. Its a low magic world...I mean, 10000 was an army "an army with a single purpose, to destroy the world of men!" Ten thousand soldiers couldn't take half the places in Forgotten Realms...LOTR is a midleages world, that has some magic..some.

I mean comeon, theres not RAISE DEAD or anything like that. *and don't go by the movie, in the book there is even less magic, and the whole battle between Gandlaf and Sarroman never takes place, oh, and when its over, when Gandlaf meets Sarroman again, in the directors cut, Sarroman thows a fireball. yeah, didn't happen the book..doesn't happen.*
The most magical people are the elves, and what they do is HEAL..thats it.

Remember, the RING is the most powerful thing in the world, and it does DOMINATE...it wouldn't be that powerful in a D&D game, perhaps some cursed iteam.

I mean, one time someone asked me, "Who would win, Gandalf or Elmenster?" I laughed. Think about it, and you will too.

so please, when you arue this..remember the bubble your in, because once you leave it, the argument is meaning less. Anything could be better if you change the world, or the rules of it. If however you can comeup with a better way, which could've been done, without stretching or breaking the likelyhood then thats fine.

This is also the reason I dont run, or game in any story based on a book, meaing you play something thats been writen or made from a movie. If you play before, or after that time, something knew then thats fine. But I wouldn't play a game where were are the heroes taking the ring into Mordor...just doesn't do it for me.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Also, remember that the timing is off. The Nazgul would be around and remounted before the Fellowship could reach Mordor, even on Eagles, since Frodo *did* need to recover.

Finally, there isn't really a route by which the Eagles could enter Mordor without, as iwatt pithily replied earlier, facing a number of catapults. Unless one wanted to cover hundreds upon hundreds of miles flying into Harad and then north over the Ephel Duath and Plain of Nurnen (in which case you'd *definitely* run into vast armies doubtless equipped with siege engines), you basically have to go right past Minas Morgul or the Black Gate.

If, OTOH, you believe that Mordor has no anti-air defenses, then I'm perfectly willing to support the idea that sticking Frodo on an eagle and sending him into Mordor would have been a smart idea.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well of *course* it's a silly argument.

 

[molonel]

I'm glad I don't let my players do this stuff. Getting together the fleet of eagles, or an army that can actually pass through Osgiliath and make it anywhere *near* the Black Gate (remember, the Siege of Gondor hasn't happened yet, meaning that those forces are still hanging around, and they nearly triumphed even against Minas Tirith, which had a defender's advantage) is basically an impossibility. Fleets of eagles aren't there to be had for the taking. Custom-training hobbits in the skills of adventure is basically impossible; do you have commoners in your campaigns who walk around with blindsight and grappling?

And wandering through the dark ash of Mordor constantly patrolled by orcs, Nazgul, trolls and wargs was NOT impossible? The reason it was called a fool's errand was because it was.

A flight of eagles was there to save the dwarves in The Hobbit, and one saved Gandalf from Saruman. They were an underutilized resource.

And again, we don't need a LOT of grappling hobbits with blindfight or whatever ability we can cook up with them. Just a few.

Finally, if Gandalf actually *could* defeat the Nazgul and hold off Sauron in an open attack, he would. That's the entire REASON the Fellowship has to travel in secret.

Again, Aragorn drove off the Nine with a sword and a torch. So the only real problem is Sauron, and I must say that I laughed out loud when someone compared him to Stephen Hawking, above.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Again, Aragorn drove off the Nine with a sword and a torch. So the only real problem is Sauron, and I must say that I laughed out loud when someone compared him to Stephen Hawking, above.

Passages in LotR regarding the power of the Nine are highly contradictory. The incident at Amon Sul is hard to reconcile with the fact that Gandalf (who appears substantially more powerful than Aragorn) could barely face the Witch-King, let alone the massed Nine.

You don't find the blindfighting grappling hobbits thing a bit silly?