Low Magic Campaigns?

Next person to continue this argument, or to derail this thread, gets a free vacation from the site. Please head back on topic... and a sincere thank you to everyone who tried not to argue despite multiple insults and provocation.

As always, please report any problems in this thread.
 

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AllisterH said:
This may sound harsh but I have to say, this is blatantly false. :D

What TSR used to say about magic items and high magic was VASTLY different than what they actually used to do.

Oh geez, must we reargue every single element of this debate. Lets not widen this into an edition war, please?

How about we agree that different groups used such widely different standards of play that defining 'standard D&D' for earlier editions is fraught with alot of difficulty. What standard play consituted for a group depended alot on what standards of play they chose.

This was the DEFAULT D&D campaign since if I ask the question, "What is a typical D&D adventure" the proper response would be "Well, the adventures published by TSR".

Actually, the proper response probably was more along the lines of, "Well, the adventurers I play/run." Some DMs took to heart the guidelines in the DMG/treasure tables and used them. Other DMs used the higher standards of wealth in most published modules as the guideline. Who was right in doing so? Who was wrong in doing so?

UPDATE: Apparantly posting at the same time as PiCat. Not sure if this consitutes continuing the debate or not.
 

Mallus said:
You know, if I wanted empty sophistry, I could just listen to myself talk... Do you agree or disagree with me vis a vis: the appeal of heroic-type fiction?

I disagree with what I understand you are trying to say. It seems like you're attributing things too starkly to power that have more complex motives. One could argue that every behavior and hobby short of self-destruction is about power - but then the concept doesn't really mean much. If we all understood fantasy fiction in the same way, I don't think we'd have anything to disagree on.

Mallus said:
You're being a little too literal, and I was using hyperbolic language. Characters around 10th level start resembling the demigods and/or the classic heroes of myth, ie, really, really powerful-type people, that's all I was saying...

Ok, I missed that. I'm thinking of an adventure in Dungeon magazine that had pirates that were 8th level fighter orcs. DnD scales in such a way that it's possible to play a game where you're 10th level, and yet everything else is 10th level too - even the commoners - to the point that there's really not enough power differential so that you resemble anything like a demi-god.

For that reason, I didn't make the connection that you meant 10th level was demi-god. In fact, the game I was referring to in college was an 8th level game - and the adventurers seemed a little more exceptional than usual, but nowhere near demi-god status. IMO demi-god status has as much/more to do with how the DM conducts things than the power level of the PCs - that's one of the things that is missed in all of this by folks that equate low magic with low power - one really doesn't know enough to say it's low-power based only on one of many factors.

Mallus said:
Of course. But at some level, every drinker is looking for the alcohol, and a drinker that claims not to be is lying. Trust me on this. I drink...

I don't know what you mean by "drinker", but the fact is that I look for a lot more than alchohol in the alchoholic drinks that I consume, and a brewer (read: DM) that thinks that some junk with alchohol in it is all I care about would be mistaken (I'm talking to you - Coors! :) ) The point is that there is subtlety and flavor to things, and while some people have no taste for it, DnD can be more than power, and beer can be more than alchohol.

Mallus said:
With an attitude like that I so would have thrown you off of my high school chess team...

That would be embarrasing! :)

Mallus said:

And therefore, to the pure all things are pure.
 


Piratecat said:
and a sincere thank you to everyone who tried not to argue despite multiple insults and provocation..

I find it's best not to feed the trolls.

Anyway, I like both lower and higher magic approaches in D&D; I do think 3e is the first version that tried to explicitly set a particular level, and set it too high for some people's tastes. By far the easiest tweak I've found with 3e is just to change the XP award rate to half standard and half NPC level demographics and environment ELs likewise. If the top Wizard is 10th you get a world much closet to that of OD&D. Not 'low magic' compared to REH's Hyborea, but comparable to Nehwon, perhaps.
 

There is a difference between a "power fantasy", which has negative connotations, and a mere "fantasy."

(In that it is an expression of imagination)

I think the problem here is that "power fantasy" is being used by its advocates without the negative connotation, but this isn't recognized by those disagreeing with them, nor are the advocates recognizing that it probably isn't the best term for what they're describing.

We play RPGs to live out a fantasy construct. It would be hard to argue that people create and play characters in a total, abstract, detached vacuum with none of their own personal quirks being worked in. I like playing faithful characters because I lack faith, I like playing old and wise characters because I am young and foolish. Or I like playing young and foolish characters because it is funny, and being funny is an enjoyable fantasy. And so on.

That's just regular fantasy. "Power fantasy", to me, suggests that the primary goal of it isn't the vicarious experience of a fantasy world, character, action, etc, but raw, unchallenged power. A power fantasist is not interested in being John McClane, Frodo, or even Sherlock Holmes. McClane and Frodo are fantastic because of what they did, not necessarily who they were. Sherlock Holmes was a deeply flawed, manic-depressive heroin addict and plot device.

A power fantasy is more like playing Steven Seagal; if you watch one of his movies, he's almost never even hit. I think he gets punched once in the sequel to the one where he's on an aircraft carrier, the one on the train. On the set he'd deny that he'd ever be unable to block a move- and all of his moves are instantly, typically completely, successful. This means that if you're looking for conflict or a challenged protagonist, you won't really find it in a Seagal movie; he's basically just a walking neck-snapping machine. But if you're just looking for the vicarious experience of power, he's only a rental away.

To me, "power fantasy" suggests a pretty damn dull experience. Power fantasy types want to be Elminster, the unkillable super-wizard. They're not interested in Harry Dresden, who has plenty of power but still goes through hell in every single novel.

Normal "fantasy" types might want power, but only if it lets them live out a more well-rounded experience- Dresden's power is a character trait that allows him to experience fantasy conflicts and face fantasy decisions (do I employ black magic or not? etc), just as John McClane's fantasy-level badassitude allows him to survive, but doesn't give him a guarantee of victory. The movie is well done enough that we forget the protagonist is going to win, and the path he takes towards victory is harsh enough we still feel he's "earned" it.

That's the crucial difference. "Power fantasy" wants a guarantee of power and doesn't want to pass through a gauntlet to get it. No price paid, no consequences, no nothing. Power is the exclusive goal.

That is not, I think, what people suggesting "power fantasy" as the basic template really want, but it is, I think, what the term is generally accepted to mean. I think it would be better to say that most D&D players want a different kind of fantasy- say, a "Heroic Fantasy" or "Fantasy Challenge" or something like that. Only a relatively smaller fraction of your exceedingly boring player base wants nothing but power to vicariously smite the guy who took their favorite parking spot.
 

jbuck said:
After my current campaign is over i wanted to start running a much less magic based campaign than normal D&D. Because I'm relativly new to the hobby i don't know what would be the best system to use for this, I've heard that Iron Heroes can be good for this sort of campaign, if it is what books do you need to run it? if not then what system would you suggest?

Thanks

So you don't have to buy a whole set of books, learn a new system, and then teach it to your players...

Try limiting the number of magic-using characters to 1 per 50,000 citizens. The PC wizard/cleric/sorcerer would be special from the start. Let the characters craft their own magic items, and they will be choosing very carefully with the limited amount of gold they have.
Take out a few other things like lighted streets, alchemists fire, and all other items taken for granted in a campaign, and the players will appreciate their own actions much more than relying on a magical tool.
 


Dannyalcatraz said:
You want disposable PCs, play Paranoia- the phrase "Paranoia Campaign" is almost an oxymoron.

Not nessesarally. I played a long running paranoia XP campaign. We stripped the humor from the book and made the Alpha Complex a much darker Orwellian place. Friend Computer required evidence to convict someone of treason and we literally compiled dossiers on the other PC's tracking their actions, lack of action and everything else. Clones would die and be replaced but it was closer to dying and being raised in D&D than "HA TRAITOR!!1!one! ZAP" with the replacement clone appearing a few minutes later.

I guess this just goes to show that there are exceptions to every rule and that almost any system can be tailored to almost any play style.
 

True enough, but that style of playing Paranoia is of fairly recent origin, and fairly rare at that.

(I have reccomended the game be used for such campaigns, though, and on these boards, too!)
 

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