lycanthrope monk - flurry with natural attacks?

[rowport]

Hey, folks! I am currently playing a Human Monk Wererat. He is starting to be a blast to play as he advances, but I am really confused if I am calculating his attack bonuses correctly for full attack actions.

Here is my question: can he interchange unarmed strikes with primary natural attacks (claws, for a wererat)? If so, can he also use his secondary attack (bite) and at what penalty? If interchanging strikes and claws is OK, then I presume that adding the bite at -2 for a secondary attack is also OK. But, if he cannot use his claws, then I do not know about using the bite. Or, maybe he could do strike/strike flurry then claw at -2?

I am so confused!! Please help!!

 

[Camarath]

As far as I can see you can not use Natural Weapons to make Unarmed Strikes. I also believe that Unarmed Strikes count as a Manufactured Weapon when you combine them with Natural Weapons meaning that your Unamred Stike(s) count as your primary attacks (i.e. you gain all the Unarmed Strike your BAB would grant) and all useable natural weapons become secondary attacks (i.e. one attack per weapon at -5).

 

[Treebore]

Since the Monk is all about using natural weapons to make unarmed strikes (feet, hands, head butt, whatever it takes) plus some actual martial weapons, I think you need to talk to your DM to see how they want to interpret the rules applications to your specific situation.

You can definitely use your claw attack as your flurry of blows, since it is your "hand" attack. The question will probably be about how the bite may or may not be integrated into a "flurry".

Personally I would only allow you to use your claws.

 

[The Souljourner]

You actually can't use claws as monk attacks. Monk attacks are "unarmed" which is distict from "natural" attacks. To flurry, you must either use "unarmed" attacks or monk weapons, and unarmed attacks do the damage stated in the monk's description (modified by size if necessary).

In general, if you use a weapon to attack, you can also attack with all your natural weapons as secondary attacks (unless the limb was used to hold the weapon). How this interacts with flurry of blows isn't clear. I think most DMs probably wouldn't allow you to use natural weapons in addition to flurry of blows, since you'd get all natural attacks plus full monk flurry, which is pretty unbalancing.

Note that the monk's unarmed attacks are not necessarily punches... it specifically says in the rules that he can attack with all parts of his body, and thus may attack even if his hands are otherwise occupied (holding your comrade's body, tied behind his back, whatever, the monk doesn't care). So rationalizing the claws as monk attacks doesn't really hold up.

-The Souljourner

 

[Camarath]

You can definitely use your claw attack as your flurry of blows, since it is your "hand" attack. The question will probably be about how the bite may or may not be integrated into a "flurry".

I can not find any rule that would allow one to use the properties of one's Natural Weapons in place of the listed properties of an Unarmed Strike when making an Unarmed Stike.

 

[Treebore]

OK, I guess since he is a were rat he cannot attack with his hands or feet since he now has claws on the end of his fingers/toes. Guess he will have to flurry with his knees/elbows/heel/palm/etc... Plus he better not use his iron claw, eagle claw, or cobra attacks either. After all martial artists never use their claws.

 

[Stormrunner]

Well, technically the increasing unarmed damage of a monk comes from chi power, not increasing force/hardness/sharpness of blows. That Wise Old Martial Arts Master can do 2d10 damage by tapping you with his pinky finger, he doesn't have to actually punch/bite/whatever. That being so, the amount/type of "base" damage is increasingly irrelevant with higher level.

We've always played it as you can do the monk damage or the natural attack damage, whichever is higher - but they DON'T stack. However, any special properties of the natural attack do carry over to the monk strike. As a wererat, your claw/bite attacks can damage other weres as if they were silver weapons - so your monk strikes have the same ability. (And if you're a natural were, you can inflict lycanthropy with a monk strike.) A cockatrice monk could petrify with its flurry of blows...

 

[rowport]

OK, thanks, guys! This helps. It does seem like this is a somewhat murky rules issue (although I am really surprised that it would not come up frequently with Savage Species... oh, well...). But, I think I get the gist. Where my "gut check" matches Treebore's interpretation- it just seems silly that he could flurry with his elbow smash, but not his claw attack- I think this is a rules-balance issue, so I am cool with it. Here is what I get from your posts:

1. No flurry with claws or bite, since they are natural weapons, not eligible monk weapons or unarmed.
2. The problem only comes up with full attacks.
3. Full attack (no flurry) with natural weapons is cool- so claw/claw as primary and bite as secondary at -5.
4. Full attack flurry unarmed is cool- so elbow/elbow with flurry bonuses and single claw as secondary at -5.
5. As a house rule (?) the special properties of the lycanthrope weapon might affect the unarmed flurry attack.

Sound right?

Edit: I just re-read C's post again, and may not be quite getting the secondary attack bit- do you mean that I DO get a secondary attack at -5 with flurry, or only with a single primary unarmed strike (i.e. no flurry). Here is the post:
As far as I can see you can not use Natural Weapons to make Unarmed Strikes. I also believe that Unarmed Strikes count as a Manufactured Weapon when you combine them with Natural Weapons meaning that your Unamred Stike(s) count as your primary attacks (i.e. you gain all the Unarmed Strike your BAB would grant) and all useable natural weapons become secondary attacks (i.e. one attack per weapon at -5).

 

[IceBear]

A wererat's claw attack is a slashing attack with his claws. A monk wererat could still flurry with his "claws", but he's not doing claw damage - a punch, ridge hand, etc isn't the same as a claw attack. Hopefully that helps you visualize your wererat monk still making a flurry attack with his "claws" and not only with his elbows and knees as someone was sarcastically pointing out.

 

[Sejs]

A cockatrice monk could petrify with its flurry of blows...

An awakened octopus monk with multi-attack.