Mad idea: taking a level of exhaustion to regain a once-per-long-rest ability?

[jgsugden]

This would be easy to abuse. I would not allow it. It also doesn't make sense in a lot of situations ... I get exhausted by doing nothing now other than preparing to do something in the future?

If you want to see the exhaustion mechanic more widely used, you could just add it to the game as a common problem for PCs to face whenever they exert themselves. Something like the following:

Something along the lines of: Whenever a PC undergoes a period of exertion, they must make a DC 10 Constitution Save or incur a level of exhaustion. A Period of Exertion is defined as any continuous strenuous physical effort that lasts more than 5 rounds consecutively. Generally, being in combat for 5 rounds will force this save unless a character does not use an action on one of those turns (which will 'reset the clock'). Rolling the save 'resets' the clock for when you must make the next save. The DC for this save rises by 2 every time it is made until either the save is failed or a short rest is taken (either of which resets the DC to 10). Characters proficient in Athletics can add their athletics score to the number of rounds they can be athletic before making a save for activities outside combat. For example, a Character with a +3 proficiency bonus and an 18 strength that is proficient in athletics can exert for 12 rounds when running before making the save, and does not need to repeat the save for another 12 rounds - unless they are in combat in which case they would need to make the save every 5 rounds.

 

[Mistwell]

Hmm - I don't think I would go for that... Why do you like that idea?

I would give them the option of accepting the new system which allows additional uses of once-per-day powers, or else accepting the old system where it can only be used once-per-day.

The new system gives more power, sometimes a lot more power. It gives the PC a lot more flexibility too. And it's not equally distributed boosts to power - not all classes come with a once-per-day power, and so it's only some PCs that will get this boost. That should come with a cost. The cost is, all uses of that power now add a level of exhaustion. It's consisted with the concept too. If using it more than once saps you of stamina, why wouldn't using it once sap you of some stamina?

If you're not going to do that, you're just handing out a lot more power at almost no cost. If the PCs are in a dungeon and the PC isn't one that typically uses a lot of skills in that kind of setting (like they have no real investigation or perception checks to speak of and they're mostly the tank) they really won't mind taking disadvantage on skill checks to gain use of that power again.

I will offer an example. Let's say you're a spellcaster with the ability to regain some used spell slots after a short rest once per day. Now you can regain those spells a second time at the cost of disadvantage on skill checks. Well, the second time is naturally likely to come near the end of that adventuring day anyway, so the odds the party will need your particular skills is pretty low anyway. Why wouldn't you do that? And yet, you've just pretty meaningfully expanded the spellcasters spell slot list. And they will just heal that level of exhaustion with the long rest they're going to be taking relatively soon anyway.

Another easy example, the Fighter ability to re-roll a failed saving throw once per day. What fighter wouldn't take disadvantage on their skill checks for a chance to avoid being dominated and killing other PCs?

Paladin? By taking disadvantage on skill checks you can avoid being knocked unconscious (which often means saving your life).

Warlock? The Mystic Arcanum power, normally usable only once a day, gives you an extra spell slot which is incredibly useful for a caster like a Warlock (who normally only gets two at a time). Taking disadvantage on skill checks to get another use of a 6th level spell? No brainer. Heck, taking half speed is probably a no-brainer most of the time as well.

 

[schnee]

Then they shouldn't accept this new system which grants them the ability to use once-per-day abilities multiple times per day.

Oh, not supporting the idea. It is too powerful.

Just nitpicking that 'no effect' isn't quite accurate.

 

[robus]

This would be easy to abuse. I would not allow it. It also doesn't make sense in a lot of situations ... I get exhausted by doing nothing now other than preparing to do something in the future?
.

Hmm yeah that's not the feel I'm going for. It is definitely to do something *now* out of desperation. It's not a "recharge" button to mash

Your ongoing exertion idea is quite interesting...

 

[LordEntrails]

A concern I have is I'm not confident any of thee suggestions effect the various classes equally.

For instance, adding a level of exhaustion for dropping to 0 (which I really like by the way) would greatly penalize my party's barbarian. Being as he often serves as the tank, he often drops to 0. He also rages and has to manage his exhaustion already. This would effectively alter his play style much more than other characters. Also, as already mentioned, skill based characters would be more effected by this rule than would casters.

So, I'm not concerned with these suggestions being too powerful, but rather in that they would not effect characters equally or similarly. Thoughts?

 

[robus]

A concern I have is I'm not confident any of thee suggestions effect the various classes equally.

For instance, adding a level of exhaustion for dropping to 0 (which I really like by the way) would greatly penalize my party's barbarian. Being as he often serves as the tank, he often drops to 0. He also rages and has to manage his exhaustion already. This would effectively alter his play style much more than other characters. Also, as already mentioned, skill based characters would be more effected by this rule than would casters.

So, I'm not concerned with these suggestions being too powerful, but rather in that they would not effect characters equally or similarly. Thoughts?

I guess it depends on how much they end up being used. If it's every session then, yeah, things are not going to seem fair. If it's a once every few sessions where a wizard or a barbarian (for example) is able to desperately reach some inner strength and achieve victory in the jaws of defeat (or at least an emergency evacuation ) that seems fine and thematic to me.

The trick is to build it in such a way that it *is* a last resort and not a first - and perhaps a way to do that is to make it cost more? 2 levels of exhaustion perhaps.

 

[robus]

I would give them the option of accepting the new system which allows additional uses of once-per-day powers, or else accepting the old system where it can only be used once-per-day.

The new system gives more power, sometimes a lot more power. It gives the PC a lot more flexibility too. And it's not equally distributed boosts to power - not all classes come with a once-per-day power, and so it's only some PCs that will get this boost. That should come with a cost. The cost is, all uses of that power now add a level of exhaustion. It's consisted with the concept too. If using it more than once saps you of stamina, why wouldn't using it once sap you of some stamina?

I can see that - but getting buy in could be tough...

If you're not going to do that, you're just handing out a lot more power at almost no cost. If the PCs are in a dungeon and the PC isn't one that typically uses a lot of skills in that kind of setting (like they have no real investigation or perception checks to speak of and they're mostly the tank) they really won't mind taking disadvantage on skill checks to gain use of that power again.

I will offer an example. Let's say you're a spellcaster with the ability to regain some used spell slots after a short rest once per day. Now you can regain those spells a second time at the cost of disadvantage on skill checks. Well, the second time is naturally likely to come near the end of that adventuring day anyway, so the odds the party will need your particular skills is pretty low anyway. Why wouldn't you do that? And yet, you've just pretty meaningfully expanded the spellcasters spell slot list. And they will just heal that level of exhaustion with the long rest they're going to be taking relatively soon anyway.

Another easy example, the Fighter ability to re-roll a failed saving throw once per day. What fighter wouldn't take disadvantage on their skill checks for a chance to avoid being dominated and killing other PCs?

Paladin? By taking disadvantage on skill checks you can avoid being knocked unconscious (which often means saving your life).

Warlock? The Mystic Arcanum power, normally usable only once a day, gives you an extra spell slot which is incredibly useful for a caster like a Warlock (who normally only gets two at a time). Taking disadvantage on skill checks to get another use of a 6th level spell? No brainer. Heck, taking half speed is probably a no-brainer most of the time as well.

Well when you put it that way it seems like a terrible idea!

I did like [MENTION=76055]MrHotter[/MENTION]'s extra cost idea for higher level slots (as not all spells are created equal) and that would help to address at least some of the spellcasting benefits.

But yeah - this obviously needs a lot more thought.

 

[cooperjer]

My first thought was using two levels of exhaustion to recover all of the features that are recovered on a long rest. That would mean all of the BM dice are recovered, all of the ki points are recovered, all of the sorc points are recovered, etc. I don't like the idea of all of the spell slots being recovered for two points of exhaustion; however, if I did this in my game my sorcerer player would insist that it's not fair for the fighter and barbarian to recover all of their special points and the wizards and sorcerers are left out to hang. With that being said, maybe it's only recovering half of the features resources for three levels of exhaustion.

I should emphasis that this is a game of resource management. If you allow characters to recover resources by expending new resources then you risk a lot of balance if you don't put good controls on it. It also makes the game more complicated. Consider how the sorcerer works. They are allowed to recover spell slots by spending sorc points. Fortunately the sorc points are a limited resource and the spell slot recover is not linear.

 

[LordEntrails]

I like it as a thematic thing. Just not sure how to get there.

 

[hbarsquared]

Searched for this topic after coming up with a similar idea from reading @DEFCON 1 's Reorganized Exhaustion Chart? thread.

This is, of course, dependent on a group liking the exhaustion system already.

Also, for groups that like the additional flexible, and incorporating a narrative of "pushing yourself beyond your limits."

Some groups may also want to revise the exhaustion level order/content to better fit their group, players, and this system.

I haven't done an analysis of every class ability, but my thought is:

• Spend one level of exhaustion to immediately regain and use a "short rest" ability.
• Spend two levels of exhaustion to immediately regain and use a "long rest" ability.

No regaining abilities in "preparation," the regained use is immediately expended.

Any single spell slot is considered a "long rest" ability.

If an ability is X times per short/long rest, then a single use is regained and spent, not all uses.

Monk's and Sorcerers receive 2 points by expending one level of exhaustion, or 4 points by expending two levels of exhaustion, which must be immediately spent.

Battle Master Fighters receive 1 superiority die by expending one level of exhaustion, which must be immediately spent.

Just some knee-jerk thoughts.