Magic items in Keep on the Borderlands
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Trivia regarding all the abundance of magical plate mail in B2: in OD&D and Holmes-edit Basic D&D (the ruleset under which B2 was originally written/published) there was only one type of "magic armor" and it was all plate mail (so in the original all those suits aren't "plate mail +1" they're "armor +1"). Magic leather and chain mail armor weren't introduced until AD&D and/or Moldvay-edit Basic D&D.
Further trivia: in the original (Holmes-edit) version of B2 the wand of paralyzation mentioned above is a wand of fireballs!
Further trivia: in the original (Holmes-edit) version of B2 the wand of paralyzation mentioned above is a wand of fireballs!
wingsandsword
Legend
I always thought it was a little contradictory, possibly even hypocritical, that back in the AD&D era they always said that all magic items are rare, special, valuable and nobody would ever, ever sell or trade them. The 2e High Level Campaigns book was very preachy about it and said a game would become a joke or farce if players could buy magic items.
Now, if magic items were all that rare, I could see that, but they never were. A 1st level adventurer could go into a nearby dungeon and knock some orc upside his head and take his +1 Longsword, and bring a few friends along with him to gear up. Even in a by-the-book module, with some smart playing and good dice luck you could be bringing out practically a wagonload of magic items.
Of course, magic items were supposed to be hard to make, only craftable by high level and highly experienced wizards (well, technically clerics too, but that wasn't talked about as much), and each one was expensive, unique and time consuming, and the Permanency spell would suck the Constitution right out of you too! A lot of ancient wizards had to really give up a lot to make all these +1 hand axes and +1 shields lying around waiting to be found.
Magic items couldn't be all that rare, the system really wasn't designed for it. Remember, monsters didn't have nice new Damage Reduction where you could hurt them with normal weapons if you hit hard enough, they were outright immune. An entire army of well trained knights with weapon specialization hacking away with mundane greatswords at a single wight won't stop it, but one single magic dagger could bring it down. Lots of common creatures assumed you not only had magic weapons, but ones with lots of plusses. All 3e did was to admit it and say that if items were that common, they had to be a little easier to make (especially scrolls and potions) and that if items were that easy to make and that common, there would be a market for them among the rich and powerful (which experienced adventurers count as).
Oh, and about item saves. Back in the AD&D days, the DM's I played under enforced that rule, but a standard PC response was the development of the Adventurer's Pack, a backpack with a forged steel plating on the inside, reenforced (to protect against crushing blows), with watertight rubber gaskets, well padded with cotton on the inside. I don't recall the entire plan off the top of my head, but it was designed to have a layer that had each of the best item saves for a category, was watertight, and could be worn as a backpack, and they were used to carry spellbooks, potions, scrolls, and other fragile items the PC's had. The DM's usually required PC's to make it themselves (and thus someone would have to buy some craft oriented NWP's) except in high-powered games where it was presumed somebody else had come up with them and they were available as high-end specialty gear. They were always very expensive because all the special skills and elaborate steps taken, but they paid for themselves in made item saves after one adventure. If somebody had a bag of holding, it so went in there immediately to multiply the space inside.
Now, if magic items were all that rare, I could see that, but they never were. A 1st level adventurer could go into a nearby dungeon and knock some orc upside his head and take his +1 Longsword, and bring a few friends along with him to gear up. Even in a by-the-book module, with some smart playing and good dice luck you could be bringing out practically a wagonload of magic items.
Of course, magic items were supposed to be hard to make, only craftable by high level and highly experienced wizards (well, technically clerics too, but that wasn't talked about as much), and each one was expensive, unique and time consuming, and the Permanency spell would suck the Constitution right out of you too! A lot of ancient wizards had to really give up a lot to make all these +1 hand axes and +1 shields lying around waiting to be found.
Magic items couldn't be all that rare, the system really wasn't designed for it. Remember, monsters didn't have nice new Damage Reduction where you could hurt them with normal weapons if you hit hard enough, they were outright immune. An entire army of well trained knights with weapon specialization hacking away with mundane greatswords at a single wight won't stop it, but one single magic dagger could bring it down. Lots of common creatures assumed you not only had magic weapons, but ones with lots of plusses. All 3e did was to admit it and say that if items were that common, they had to be a little easier to make (especially scrolls and potions) and that if items were that easy to make and that common, there would be a market for them among the rich and powerful (which experienced adventurers count as).
Oh, and about item saves. Back in the AD&D days, the DM's I played under enforced that rule, but a standard PC response was the development of the Adventurer's Pack, a backpack with a forged steel plating on the inside, reenforced (to protect against crushing blows), with watertight rubber gaskets, well padded with cotton on the inside. I don't recall the entire plan off the top of my head, but it was designed to have a layer that had each of the best item saves for a category, was watertight, and could be worn as a backpack, and they were used to carry spellbooks, potions, scrolls, and other fragile items the PC's had. The DM's usually required PC's to make it themselves (and thus someone would have to buy some craft oriented NWP's) except in high-powered games where it was presumed somebody else had come up with them and they were available as high-end specialty gear. They were always very expensive because all the special skills and elaborate steps taken, but they paid for themselves in made item saves after one adventure. If somebody had a bag of holding, it so went in there immediately to multiply the space inside.
Numion
First Post
wingsandsword said:
Your post is the truth. It just is impossible to discuss 'how it used to be' because it was a long while a go. Youth and novelty of the hobby figured as much into gaming as the rules themselves. However, the only solid piece of evidence, the rules and modules from that period, are interpreted through our current point of view. Nostalgy usually leads into more rosy picture of how the game was actually played.
People still playing those editions probably say the game is low-magic, but the hobby has evolved. Back then, no other examples were given than the treasure-laden modules. There was no internet to argue the finer nuances of 1E rules that everyone ignored back then anyway
My (fond) memories of 1E include running out of space for my magic item arsenal on the character sheet.
Endur
First Post
Much Harder To Find Magic Items in Basic D&D
You couldn't use Detect Magic to find magic items back in basic D&D days.
In basic D&D, no zero level spells, no bonus spells. A first level wizard had one spell (usually Sleep) and a 1st level cleric has ZERO spells.
So, unless something was obviously a magic item, it was very easy to miss magic items in those days.
You couldn't use Detect Magic to find magic items back in basic D&D days.
In basic D&D, no zero level spells, no bonus spells. A first level wizard had one spell (usually Sleep) and a 1st level cleric has ZERO spells.
So, unless something was obviously a magic item, it was very easy to miss magic items in those days.
ThirdWizard
First Post
Alternately, many DMs would simply say "You find a +1 sword" or "You find a wand of fireballs" even if they weren't supposed to.
diaglo
Adventurer
ThirdWizard said:
where this many come from?
none of the DMs i knew did.
to use Numion's words "selective memory" also plays into people thinking that stuff done today is new. and that no one ever thought of or did that in the old days.
low magic has many different meanings... it is low magic too when PCs don't know they have magic items and sell them as nonmagical or give them away.
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