magic missile always hits again???

[Superking]

I ran a delve where the minions in the last encounter had a very high AC. The fighter was tied up with the BBEG and the minions started to go for the party. Initially I was worried about the encounter. The other PC's aside from the fighter are well thought out but not optimized. Thy would have a hard time hitting on AC.

The Wizard's ability to take out those minions was huge. I would go as far to say it
helped to turn the encounter.

Before the encounter the Wizard player was bemoaning the fact that they had changed his MM with errata. Afterword, he thought it was pretty cool.

My question for the group: What are we to do with monster stats that have MM in them? Is that also errata or do we follow the as printed version because they are monsters?

 

[Arlough]

Forgive me for a minor digression...

One house rule our group will be trying out soon is to remove the scaling damage from Magic Missile -- it would always stay at Int + 2. Instead, at Paragon levels it changes to a Move action to cast, and at Epic levels it is changes to a Minor action.

It allows for more targets and better damage scaling over all, but at the expense of requiring more actions in a single round to gain those benefits. It also allows Magic Missile to be used as an end of the round damage kicker... Allowing the Wizard to burn any extra move or minor actions for the round on dealing a bit of damage to an enemy or two.

I'm looking forward to seeing how well it works.

I like this houserule. At least, as much as I like anything to do with the new Magic Missile. The ideas behind this one seem to give the best balance between functionality and reminiscing (which is what I really see the change being spawned by).

In our group, we have houseruled out Magic Missile because at first it was too weak, then it was too powerful, then it required tremendous errata to make it not too weak or too powerful which fouled up other powers... we just called it quits on updates right there. (basically pre-essentials)
Now we are looking at starting a new campaign and trying out the new rules. How Magic Missile played out was going to be one of the tests for us. So far, it is looking 'meh', but workable.

 

[Destil]

Worst essentials change. No dice, no deal.

 

[DracoSuave]

Worst essentials change. No dice, no deal.

Cause it made a terrible power worse, or because it made a terrible power mediocre?

 

[Arlough]

Cause it made a terrible power worse, or because it made a terrible power mediocre?

Because of all the basic rules that required rewriting to make it work.
If they had just made it...

Hit: 1d4 + Int modifier damage.
Miss: Int modifier damage.
Special: Magic missile counts as a ranged basic attack and damages minions, even on a miss.​

...it would have still been reduced in power made solely for the purpose of codifying flavor, but it wouldn't have required a rework of all sorts of core rules.

 

[Pbartender]

I ran a delve where the minions in the last encounter had a very high AC. The fighter was tied up with the BBEG and the minions started to go for the party. Initially I was worried about the encounter. The other PC's aside from the fighter are well thought out but not optimized. Thy would have a hard time hitting on AC.

The Wizard's ability to take out those minions was huge. I would go as far to say it
helped to turn the encounter.

Before the encounter the Wizard player was bemoaning the fact that they had changed his MM with errata. Afterword, he thought it was pretty cool.

I was recently in the middle of building a Human Wizard, and had a tough time deciding on his bonus At-Will... I finally decided on Magic Missile for the same reasons you suggest here. Occasionally, we run into a BBEG who is very difficult to hit. MM guarantees at least a little bit of damage every round.

Also, for my particular build, I found a nifty sniping combo... As a Phiarlan Phantasmist: Phantasmist Action + Wizard's Fury + Ever-Fading Armor + Magic Missile.

Use an action point to cast Wizard's Fury and become invisible until the start of your next turn. Then, every round use a Standard action with the Ever-Fading Armor to stay invisible for another round, plink someone with a Minor action Magic Missile, and then use your Move action with Stealth for further confusion (If you have them, add Levitate into the mix as your Move action for more confusion).

You have a "sustainable" invisibility that doesn't go away when you attack and a Minor action attack. It would also work well with any spell that you can cast and then sustain as a minor action -- Stinking Cloud, for example. Due to the limitations of the action economy, it's not super powerful, but it's handy in certain situations and kind of fun to pull out now and again.

My question for the group: What are we to do with monster stats that have MM in them? Is that also errata or do we follow the as printed version because they are monsters?

Out of curiosity, I checked... None of the Magic Missile entries for monsters have been updated to the new version in the Compendium. They all still target Reflex and deal Xd4 damage.

 

[Pbartender]

Because of all the basic rules that required rewriting to make it work.
If they had just made it...

Hit: 1d4 + Int modifier damage.
Miss: Int modifier damage.
Special: Magic missile counts as a ranged basic attack and damages minions, even on a miss.​

...it would have still been reduced in power made solely for the purpose of codifying flavor, but it wouldn't have required a rework of all sorts of core rules.

What core rules did they have to rewrite?

They reworded a handful of magic items and feats to read "bonus to damage roll" (something they should have done anyway for consistency), but they never changed any core rules for the benefit or detriment of the new Magic Missile.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Out of curiosity, I checked... None of the Magic Missile entries for monsters have been updated to the new version in the Compendium. They all still target Reflex and deal Xd4 damage.

Maybe those should be called "Monster Missles" instead.

 

[Destil]

Cause it made a terrible power worse, or because it made a terrible power mediocre?

A) Made a power that was at least workable (lots of things powered it up if that's what you wanted) pretty much non-viable.

B) No dice. The power itself is super boring. I'm not a fan of something, especially at will, that's just so predictable.

Because of all the basic rules that required rewriting to make it work.
If they had just made it...

Hit: 1d4 + Int modifier damage.
Miss: Int modifier damage.
Special: Magic missile counts as a ranged basic attack and damages minions, even on a miss.​

...it would have still been reduced in power made solely for the purpose of codifying flavor, but it wouldn't have required a rework of all sorts of core rules.

My idea version of magic missile would be:

Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Int + 2 vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d4 + Int modifier damage, or 1d4 + Int modifier if you targeted two creatures.
Level 21+: Increase damage to 4d4 + Int modifier, or 2d4 + int modifier vs. two creatures.
Special: You can use this power as a ranged basic attack.
​

With a paragon tier feat to allow it to deal Int damage on a miss (all force power? All ranged force powers?)

 

[DracoSuave]

A) Made a power that was at least workable (lots of things powered it up if that's what you wanted) pretty much non-viable.

B) No dice. The power itself is super boring. I'm not a fan of something, especially at will, that's just so predictable.



My idea version of magic missile would be:

Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Int + 2 vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d4 + Int modifier damage, or 1d4 + Int modifier if you targeted two creatures.
Level 21+: Increase damage to 4d4 + Int modifier, or 2d4 + int modifier vs. two creatures.
Special: You can use this power as a ranged basic attack.
​

With a paragon tier feat to allow it to deal Int damage on a miss (all force power? All ranged force powers?)

So... like a completely different power that does something different.

For various reasons, you can't have a basic attack that targets multiple targets (without some very special circumstances) so that makes this power unworkable. It gets away from their goal: To make the classic magic missile. They can't have the magic missile that models the classic MM not do auto-damage, cause that's all the classic MM did. People wanted it.

And for balance reasons, auto-damage MM can't involve damage rolls.

Not every single thing every player should do in every game ever is made fun with a die roll. Some players (as noted in this thread) find the new MM fun, and engaging. Other players find it fun with that fun wand that makes it a push effect. Either way, you have players who find it fun, with a power that is actually sub-par. 'Cause I prefer powers with dice rolls' isn't a reason that trumps that; it's just dogma.

Why would you do anything to change that? Fun and not overpowered are more important than 'dogma'. And if you feel that you need to make attack rolls? Choose a different power. Wizards have LOTS of at-will options. Arc Lightning probably suits you better.