Maintaining Zone and Delayed Actions

[AbdulAlhazred]

Start of Your Turn: At the moment you delay, carry out the start of your turn normally.

So "start of turn" stuff actually does happen. You'd get Font of Life Saving Throws and etc., regeneration would happen, so would ongoing damage, and you'd lose any beneficial effect that was EoNT (stun an enemy, marks, self-buffs, etc.,) because you cannot use delaying to increase the duration of effects. Then when you re-insert yourself into the order, the normal start of turn things don't happen, you just get your Move+Minor+Standard and then the harmful EoNT gets sorted out (if you were weakened, dazed, needed to make a normal saving throw, etc.)

Exactly, which makes DS's claim incorrect. His error is thinking that you decide to delay or not AFTER you process the start of your turn. In fact you decide to delay BEFORE any of your turn happens. At that point all 'bad things' that happen at turn start happen and all good things that end at start of turn happen, then all bad things that happen at end of turn happen and all good things that end at end of turn end.

Now when you reinsert into the turn order you do another start of turn sequence where all the good things happen that kick in at start of turn and bad things end. Then you do your actions, and all the bad things that end at end of turn happen along with all the good things.

I won't say there aren't any possible loopholes in all of this, but the general idea is you never benefit from anything good for longer than normal by delaying, nor do you delay the onset of anything bad. Ongoing damage and such bad things will NOT happen twice.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ok, now here's an interesting one:

what if a monster has hit you with an EoNT effect and you delay until after the end of its next turn? Does the effect wear off before you go or not?

This is one where you can escape an effect by delaying. If you think about it though you MUST allow the enemy to go again before you do, so it has the opportunity to put the same effect on you again. You could also acquire any number of other effects (good or bad). Realistically you can sometimes use this kind of thing to double dip a bonus from an ally or slip out of a bad effect, but you're also sacrificing a certain amount of action economy by moving lower in the initiative order (over the whole encounter on average). Usually its worth the cost, but players that try to game this too much will generally find that the DM can pull these tricks too, and since PCs have a lot more effects like this than monsters it just ends up punishing the PCs.

Most players don't really figure out they can do this stuff, but when they do I explain to them flat out that if they're going to go crazy with these kinds of tactics I'm going to play that game too and they're going to lose. So you end up with a truce.

 

[webrunner]

No. You can't delay out of negative effects, as per RAW.

I think the hypothetical is this:

Hypothetical Monster has a power
at-will basic attack
Target creature takes 1d4 damage and is weakened until the beginning of Hypothetical Monster's next turn.

The effect has nothing to do with your turn, just WHEN your turn is, so by RAW wouldn't you not be effected if you delay after the monster's turn?

The same sort of thing happens if an "end of monster's next turn" effect is placed on a party member's or ally's turn, just before the monster's own turn.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'll admit that I'm wrong about the beginning of turn stuff...


However with 'EoNT' effects, doesn't that depend on the end of -whose- turn it is? There's end of -your- next turn vs end of -the target's- next turn, and that makes a difference as to whether delay can avoid it or not.

(Just saying that EoNT is ambiguous at best)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'll admit that I'm wrong about the beginning of turn stuff...


However with 'EoNT' effects, doesn't that depend on the end of -whose- turn it is? There's end of -your- next turn vs end of -the target's- next turn, and that makes a difference as to whether delay can avoid it or not.

(Just saying that EoNT is ambiguous at best)

Yeah, you're entirely correct on that score. A character can escape from an effect that ends on someone else's turn (or any other way that isn't tied to their turn). As I said above though, it carries some costs, so its not always a good idea. Often the best way for characters to do this kind of thing is by using Ready an Action. THAT way they can indeed escape from negative effects that end on their own turns, albeit they only get one standard action instead of their whole turn.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, you're entirely correct on that score. A character can escape from an effect that ends on someone else's turn (or any other way that isn't tied to their turn). As I said above though, it carries some costs, so its not always a good idea. Often the best way for characters to do this kind of thing is by using Ready an Action. THAT way they can indeed escape from negative effects that end on their own turns, albeit they only get one standard action instead of their whole turn.

Depends on the effect.

Readying an action, as a standard action, does not replace your turn, so things might still affect other actions... as well the trigger of the readied action may not occur. Nothing stops you from readying an action and then moving and using your minor, however. If you are immobilized... not so good. If you are weakened, the stock of readying the action goes up.

As well, you must announce the target at the time of readying an action, so it does have a lot of limitations.

 

[Jack99]

I think the hypothetical is this:

Hypothetical Monster has a power
at-will basic attack
Target creature takes 1d4 damage and is weakened until the beginning of Hypothetical Monster's next turn.

The effect has nothing to do with your turn, just WHEN your turn is, so by RAW wouldn't you not be effected if you delay after the monster's turn?

The same sort of thing happens if an "end of monster's next turn" effect is placed on a party member's or ally's turn, just before the monster's own turn.

Yeah, I was a bit quick there

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, I was a bit quick there

Altho, delaying will rarely help you against a 'save ends' power... unless you happen to have a leader with free saves inconveniently placed on the initiative table.

 

[wouldrichest]

Exactly. Start of turn stuff happens when you decide to delay.

I just re-read the rules to be sure I wasn't missing something, and this is how it goes.

Bruno the wizard, who comes at initiative 15, has the following conditions on himself and others.
he has regeneration 5
he has ongoing 5 fire damage
he is sustaining a stinking cloud
he also just imposed (last round) dazed until the end of his next turn on monster Y
he is also weakened until the end of his next turn

Initiative 15 comes up
Bruno regenerates 5
Bruno takes ongoing 5 fire damage

Bruno decides to delay until initiative 10
The stinking cloud disappears, since he has not sustained it.
the dazed condition of monster y ends

initiative 10 comes up
Bruno attacks monster X - he hits, but he is still weakened
Bruno saves against the ongoing 5 fire damage
the weakened conditions leaves him

and the initiative proceeds.

So "start of turn" stuff actually does happen. You'd get Font of Life Saving Throws and etc., regeneration would happen, so would ongoing damage, and you'd lose any beneficial effect that was EoNT (stun an enemy, marks, self-buffs, etc.,) because you cannot use delaying to increase the duration of effects. Then when you re-insert yourself into the order, the normal start of turn things don't happen, you just get your Move+Minor+Standard and then the harmful EoNT gets sorted out (if you were weakened, dazed, needed to make a normal saving throw, etc.)

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[Saeviomagy]

No. You can't delay out of negative effects, as per RAW.

... interesting. That exact line does indeed appear in the text for delay, and it's the only reason that this doesn't work: the rest of the text seems to assume that monsters always use effects that end at the end of the target's next turn.

However it's not present in ready, so readying for "I attack when I can see again" seems to be a sensible one.

Most players don't really figure out they can do this stuff, but when they do I explain to them flat out that if they're going to go crazy with these kinds of tactics I'm going to play that game too and they're going to lose. So you end up with a truce.

... your players lack confidence (or are endowed with wisdom), and your game is lucky for it. Adversarial gaming rarely makes for a good long running campaign.