Making a Physical Skill Challenge that Involves Everyone?

[Max1mus]

I'd expand your concept of what the skill challenge includes so that it covers more.

For instance:

The woman approaches them, obviously frantic and panicked, to the point where she is just wildly raving instead of being coherent. The skill challenge becomes not ONLY to lift the rocks, but to find the rockfall in the first place.

So:
Social skills to soothe the woman and get more information on the rockfall out of her.

Knowledge nature to find the location of the rockfall by working out where the cliff (or whatever) is unsound. The same could go for dungeoneering.

History should give the knowledge of a previous, large rockfall that happened in the past.

Athletics and perception will let you find the rockfall by doing flat-foot work (athletics lets you move quicker, perception lets you spot things faster)

Athletics, endurance, thievery, dungeoneering and nature can be used to move rocks effectively.

Perception and social skills can be used to more accurately direct the search. Perception could also be used to look out for shifting rocks to help move them safely. The social skills can be used to keep the child calm (and if he's injured, that will stop him from bleeding out).

Heal can also be used to tend to the child while rocks are moved.

These would be all good ideas, even if they were just ghosts. I like the idea of a ghost who is frantic and confused, constantly re-living the moment of tragedy. That's why they are ghosts right? They can't get past the moment of their death. There's plenty of reason for a ghost to be confused and not know what to do. Also, just because it spans more time in the game world, doesn't mean it takes a long time at the table. The players won't be sitting on their hands with nothing to do. They will be taking turns at each opportune moment to contribute their specialty. But in the game world it might be over 30 minutes. Then after all that searching and mystery, the players find out that it was a ghost the whole time. Creepy and rewarding at the same time...

 

[sfedi]

A skill challenge that involves everyone?

Outrun the bear. You don't have to outrun the fastest PC. You have to outrun the slowest PC.

Let the party's lowest skill roll define the overall success. Allow someone with a superior roll to take 5 ranks to bump a laggard's roll by 2. Before the roll, of course.

Tally all of the results and compare to an opponent that is better than the slugs, worse than the studs. That way, the party surges ahead, falls back, pushes forward, falls behind on every roll. (on the average) making for an entertaining back and forth high tension affair.

That's a bad Skill Challenge, it has almost no decision making.
(like almost all published SCs, for that matter)

 

[koesherbacon]

Intimidate the woman into not pressing charges after you collapse the pile of rocks and kill her child

 

[Nytmare]

I agree with most of what Saeviomagy said. A skill challenge should be bigger than what could be covered with a single roll. Moving a pile of rocks, especially a pile of rocks that doesn't really have anything to do with the bigger story seems more like clutter than skill challenge fodder to me.

You want to end with the PCs finding the bodies and having the "Whoa! They were ghosts!" moment. I'd open with them finding out that the woods were haunted and leading them to the conclusion that the ghosts are a threat.

Episode - Getting Through the Haunted Woods

Act 1 - Which way do we go? The PCs figure out that they need to go through the HaUnTeD woods. History, nature, and religion checks. Successes put them on the most direct route through the woods, and teach them local hedge magics to guard against this particular flavor of ghost. Failures get them lost and maybe dump them into an ugly fight starting Act 2.

Act 2 - This lady needs help! The PCs discover the (she couldn't possibly be a ghost) damsel in distress. Maybe she herself is being tormented by other bully undead and the PCs have to rescue her? Her foolish children have gone off into the woods to an abandoned mine spurred on by tales of adventurers finding treasure and our heroes need to "return them to their mother's arms." Social skills to calm her, intimidation and combat abilities to cow the mean ol ghosts, history and dungeoneering checks to point the way to the mine. Successes (unless they're coming into this with a failure) let them scare off the ghosts unscathed and without expending resources, give them information about/get them to the mine. Failures mean that they're fighting and possibly losing dailies and surges.

Act 3 - Move the pile of rocks. Hey there's a mine, hey the bully ghosts came back to harass us, hey there's nothing down here but a bunch of old skeletons and one of them is dressed like that lady who sent us here to save her kids. Digging and dungeoneering types skills. Successes, the ghosts are happy, hey look, here's a magic whozit the kids had found. Failures and they've disturbed/destroyed the remains and the spirits can no longer find peace. Curses, big fights against an upset mommy ghost? Anything along those lines float your boat?

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

That's a nice idea, but the problem is that it just becomes different phases where different players are sitting on their hands, as opposed to getting everyone involved at the same time. I want players to be able to be engaged the whole time, as opposed to wait for their character's turn/not be useful anymore.

This is more difficult to do, but not impossible. Think of the skill challenge as consisting of 2 stages, each with a set of skills that are relevant for that stage.

ie: Stage 1: get the ghost calm enough to tell the party where the 'children' are buried.

Stage 2: work on the rocks to free the 'children.'

Divide the successes of the challenge between the the two scenes. Ie: for a type 2 challenge (6 successes before 3 failures), the party needs 2 successes to complete Stage 1, then they move on to Stage 2, where they need 4 successes to win the challenge.

As for the skills, don't ask, "Which skills can be used?", because players will surprise you with weird uses of skills. Instead ask, "Which skills really can't be used at this stage, no matter what?" (And even then, they might really amaze you.)

Acrobatics: Stage 1: uesless. Stage 2: difficult, but maybe a player can leap to someone's aid when the rocks get surprisingly heavier.

Arcana: Useless in both.

Athletics: Stage 1: useless. Stage 2: Quite useful.

Bluff: Stage 1: possible use to calm down ghost mom so she can tell party where the 'kids' are. Stage 2: possible use in keeping ghost mom from hysterics when rocks shift around 'kids'. I'd make the DC on both Stages harder than Diplomacy, since ghost mom is too distraught to worry about sly words. Maximum of 2 successes.

Diplomacy: Same as bluff. Lower DC.

Dungeoneering: Stage 1: unlikely, unless players are clever. Stage 2: Useful to recognize lever points, how rocks shift, cave-in procedures, etc. Option: 1 success at easy DC can remove 1 failure, as you set up braces and supports: 1 use of this option only.

Endurance: Stage 1: unlikely. Stage 2: Quite useful.

Heal: As the ghosts are already dead, not very useful.

History: No go. Reading about famous land slides in the past will not assist the party here.

Intimidate: Similar to Bluff. Bonus to check if the party can show if it is strong and tough, thus more likely to move rocks.

Insight: Stage 1: 'mom' is telling the truth (as it is). Stage 2: not useful. 1 success max.

Nature: Stage 1: cooberating 'mom's story. Cutting through wilds to reach rock slide sooner. Stage 2: Like Dungeoneering, but harder DC since rock slides and stuff is more focused on Dungeoneering skill.

Perception: Stage 1: Less useful. Stage 2: Note change in rock type as they move more rocks. Seeing which rocks could be safely moved. 1 success max.

Religion: Stage 1 and 2: calm 'mother' with promise of gods help. No more than 1 success possible this way.

Stealth: Stage 1: useless. Stage 2: Allow for careful movement on top of pile of stone, allows for new perch and ability to move otherwise difficult to reach stones.

Theivery: Stage 1: useless. Stage 2: Similiar to Dungeoneering.


To keep the 'reveal' from people, get them busy as well. Don't let the Invoker do nothing but try Insight on the ghost, get him/her invovled by proding, "The rock pile is unstable, but you see a bunch you can move from up top. If you could only get up there you might be able to make things easier for others."

Give the ones not physically moving rocks hints as to what they could do. Prompt them for action, "The mother is begging you for help. Are you just going to stand there?"

If the challenge is just "moving rocks that get heavier each time a rock is moved", then yes, it won't be much fun. Add more 'layers' to the challange, and more 'things' for the party to do to get success, and fun will be had by all.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

In a "pressed for time" situation I often make skill challenge failure impossible. They can keep trying until they accumulate enough successes, but the longer they take . . . well, the longer they take. The PCs can give up any time they choose if they feel it's taking too long.

Find a reasonable time measure for your skill checks (maybe each "round" of checks is one hour). Each PC can choose to make an appropriate check or not. After everyone has made a try or passed then one hour has passed. Tally up the successes, compare to the goal, rinse repeat until success or the PCs give up.

This allows the people who will probably fail to not totally ruin the skill challenge, but have a chance to help.

Also, many of the ideas here about using other skills are a great idea.

Example I have used in my campaign:

The heroes are traveling a rugged, overgrown path on the edge of a mountain range. "Normal" people can make the trek in about 10 days. For my five PCs I started up a skill challenge where each PC could make a check using a skill of his/her choice to help get across the path. A well described use of a skill required a moderate DC check for success. A poorly described use of a skill required a hard DC. A truly dumb idea or something that would be useless resulted in automatic failure.

The heroes needed to get 25 successes to get across the pass. Due to environmental conditions they could not get the benefits of an extended rest during the trek. Each skill check failure cost a healing surge. Each character could make a check, aid another or choose not to take the risk once per day.

The heroes made it across the pass in 7 days and lost a total of 5 healing surges between them. There were a couple of combat encounters along the way as well.

 

[Skallgrim]

I don't know that I would treat this as a skill challenge either. I love the gothic and sad quality that the scenario has, and I don't think it needs a challenge.

The woman approaches and begs the PCs for help. Insight can help here, in determining her sincerity, and a very difficult Arcana or Religion check might in fact identify her as a ghost. That wouldn't be a skill challenge, per se, but it would help the PCs decide to help her (she's telling the truth) and possibly clue them in to what is going on (This is a ghost...let's see what is up!). Still, the decision to help would be up to the PCs.

Removing the stones would probably, depending on their weight, require a Strength check with Aid Another options. You might even allow Endurance checks to remove the rocks more quickly, at the risk of becoming fatigued (on a failed endurance roll). On the other hand, you don't really want the PCs to roll a bad roll and fail to get a boon just because the burly barbarian rolled a 1. You also don't want them to sit back and watch as the barbarian and fighter clear the rocks because the wizard might blow a roll and drop a rock on the child. He can still help with smaller rocks, holding them as they are shifted, etc. However, the end result (clearing the stones to reveal the tragedy) shouldn't be in question, unless the PCs deliberately give up or act flippant (I stand on top of the pile and kick rocks off in every direction!). The rock clearing is simply the heroic labor to illustrate their concern for others.

I would let PCs make skill checks in this encounter, but the encounter itself seems to be largely about their decisions and actions, and understanding. Do we help the woman? How do we act while doing so (concerned, solicitous, resentful, reluctant)? What do we do when we realize what has happened (are we appropriately sad or do we complain about this stupid ghost?). What happens as a result of our actions (are be blessed by a grateful spirit, or do we establish ourselves as heroes in name only)?

 

[Rechan]

I don't know that I would treat this as a skill challenge either. I love the gothic and sad quality that the scenario has, and I don't think it needs a challenge.

The woman approaches and begs the PCs for help. Insight can help here, in determining her sincerity, and a very difficult Arcana or Religion check might in fact identify her as a ghost. That wouldn't be a skill challenge, per se, but it would help the PCs decide to help her (she's telling the truth) and possibly clue them in to what is going on (This is a ghost...let's see what is up!). Still, the decision to help would be up to the PCs.

Removing the stones would probably, depending on their weight, require a Strength check with Aid Another options. You might even allow Endurance checks to remove the rocks more quickly, at the risk of becoming fatigued (on a failed endurance roll). On the other hand, you don't really want the PCs to roll a bad roll and fail to get a boon just because the burly barbarian rolled a 1. You also don't want them to sit back and watch as the barbarian and fighter clear the rocks because the wizard might blow a roll and drop a rock on the child. He can still help with smaller rocks, holding them as they are shifted, etc. However, the end result (clearing the stones to reveal the tragedy) shouldn't be in question, unless the PCs deliberately give up or act flippant (I stand on top of the pile and kick rocks off in every direction!). The rock clearing is simply the heroic labor to illustrate their concern for others.

I would let PCs make skill checks in this encounter, but the encounter itself seems to be largely about their decisions and actions, and understanding. Do we help the woman? How do we act while doing so (concerned, solicitous, resentful, reluctant)? What do we do when we realize what has happened (are we appropriately sad or do we complain about this stupid ghost?). What happens as a result of our actions (are be blessed by a grateful spirit, or do we establish ourselves as heroes in name only)?

And yet to me that's a skill challenge.

The criteria for "What a skill challenge is":

1) Involves more than one roll,
2) Failure is an option, and is a setback or other negative consequence.

Failure doesn't just mean "oh well you don't get anything out of it you stop". As it was pointed out above, it could just take longer. It could also become darker - the pile 'sinks', obviously crushing anything underneath. But the wailing only gets louder, and the sky grows darker, the wind harsher - do you keep digging?

By simply using it as a skill challenge, I'm getting everyone involved. If it wasn't, then why wouldn't they let the fighter/barbarian do the heavy lifting and that be the end of it? By making it a skill challenge, I'm pushing them to use their skills. And I started this thread so that I could offer choices for those skills instead of making the wizard use athletics.

 

[MarkB]

And yet to me that's a skill challenge.

The criteria for "What a skill challenge is":

1) Involves more than one roll,
2) Failure is an option, and is a setback or other negative consequence.

I don't think that fulfills the criteria for a skill challenge. It's more like:

"Involves a complex sequence of actions to which multiple skill checks can be applied, with room for innovative thinking to bring different skills into play."

Lifting a set of rocks doesn't qualify.

By simply using it as a skill challenge, I'm getting everyone involved. If it wasn't, then why wouldn't they let the fighter/barbarian do the heavy lifting and that be the end of it? By making it a skill challenge, I'm pushing them to use their skills. And I started this thread so that I could offer choices for those skills instead of making the wizard use athletics.

Simply making it a skill challenge doesn't automatically get everyone involved. To do that, you need to structure the challenge to have 'hooks' that a number of different character builds can lock onto, each bringing their own strengths to bear. A purely physical, athletic challenge, even one in which you mandate that the whole party must participate, isn't an interesting group activity. Those who are rolling checks on their worst skills will become bored and frustrated.

Also, if you insist on making this scene a skill challenge and drawing it out, you're unlikely to get your big reveal. You'll give your players too much time to think about it and realise the true nature of the situation.

If I were dead set on making this scene a skill challenge, I'd abandon the big reveal - as I've said, I don't think it's something you can retain if you make it a skill challenge. Instead, let the players open up with Insight checks (not contributing to success or failure) to realise that there's no way any living child could be buried under this cairn of moss-covered stones, and from there realise that the mother is also a ghost, one who needs their aid.

As they try to use Athletics to shift the stones, dark whispy forms gather and cling around the rocks, holding them in place. This opens up Arcana and Religion checks.

A success on Arcana counts as a success on the challenge, and also reveals that this area is a weak point between the material plane and the Shadowfell, allowing some of the dissolute spirits from there to cross over. These spirits are mere remnants of lost souls, barely sentient, motivated purely by rage and self-pity, hating anything living, but they are too insubstantial to do any significant direct harm to living creatures, or to be attacked directly in return.

A success on Religion also counts towards the challenge, and allows the character to make sense of the mother's seemingly-nonsensical explanations in the light of his religious knowledge. It turns out that she and her baby son were killed by wild animals while camping here as part of a trade caravan, many decades ago. Both mother and child were innocents, and would have gone on to whatever rewarding afterlife awaited them - but the dark spirits that haunt this place, remnants of souls doomed to wander the Shadowfell forever, were jealous of them, and snatched the child's defenseless spirit before it could pass on, attempting to drag him back to the Shadowfell. The mother's spirit remained on this plane voluntarily to defend her child, and they've been locked in conflict ever since, the mother able to prevent the spirits from taking her son across to the Shadowfell, but not strong enough to free him from their grasp.

That unlocks further checks - Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate to confront the spirits directly; History to recall some great battle or cataclysm in this area, from which those spirits might originate, thus providing a bonus to social-skills checks against them; Arcana or Religion combined with appropriate powers to fend them off; Religion to conduct a ritual of consecration that will loosen the Shadowfell's connection to this place. Meanwhile, the boulders still need lifting, and the spirits are attempting to sap the strength of those doing that task, requiring Endurance checks to bolster them or Heal checks to stave off the spirits' harmful effects.

Once enough successes have been achieved, the remaining boulders are lifted and the dark spirits retreat temporarily. With the child's remains revealed, a group Religion check can attempt to consecrate them, setting his spirit free to pass on to the afterlife. With that done, the mother stays just long enough to thank the PCs and grant them a boon, and the dark spirits disperse with a wail of infuriated anguish.

 

[Rechan]

Simply making it a skill challenge doesn't automatically get everyone involved. To do that, you need to structure the challenge to have 'hooks' that a number of different character builds can lock onto, each bringing their own strengths to bear. A purely physical, athletic challenge, even one in which you mandate that the whole party must participate, isn't an interesting group activity.

Except that PHysical, athletic skill challenges are a category of skill challenge. Climbing a cliff, trekking over a long distance, etc, are purely physical challenges.

Just like you have mental or social challenges, where the physical skills don't play a part. Athletics, Acrobatics or Endurance aren't useful in a diplomatic skill challenge. By your reasoning, then it's not useful because it doesn't have "hooks" for the physical character.

Open your DMG to the skill challenge chapter, and look at the skill challenges presented. See what skills they facilitate.

The Dead Witness: Bluff, Diplomacy, History, Insight, Religion. Look how many skills are missing - the ranger, fighter, barbarian, etc are boned here.
Urban Chase: Acrobatics, Athletics, Perception, Streetwise. Guess the spellcasters are out of luck here.
The Interrogation: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate. Purely social, so the mental and physical skills are out completely.
Lost in the WIlderness: Perception, Nature, Endurance. Total lack of social skills, the only knowledge skill is Nature (which several mental classes don't have). Your cleric for instance is useless here.
Discovering Secret Lore: Arcana, Diplomacy, Religion.

If you see a pattern, it's that each skill challenge presented only uses 3 skills. And I don't see any that has one that falls into each area, Physical/Mental/Social.

As have been suggested in this thread, Thievery, Perception, Insight, Nature, Dungeoneering and Acrobatics all have a place in this skill challenge alongside Athletics and Endurance. That's more skills than any sample skill challenge in the DMG.