Mallus Rediscovers AD&D

[grodog]

I remember well one instance during a gameday AD&D session where a player who had never played AD&D before had his character charge straight into a friendly cone of cold spell, because of "declare actions, then roll." Rather than be ticked off, they were actually fascinated and amused, because they had NEVER seen "friendly fire" in D&D before.

A good story, Henry!

If I may make a suggestion to the OP...?
Stirges. Stirges, stirges, stirges, stirges!

Also: Otherworld makes some excellent stirge minis you can use in the game

 

[Mallus]

A few observations -- courtesy of the American Council for the Obvious .

AD&D delivers answers fast.

In the course of three short sessions, the party met a patron, foiled a murder, explored the site of another murder, fought rats, undead, and a corrupt city watch squad led by a Minotaur, overcame the Minotaur using trickery, framed them to avoid trouble with the law, rescued two imprisoned miniature dryads, agreed to return them to their "egg", discovered the location of a dungeon (site of egg), traveled there, and got knocked to the edge of a TPK by striges.

Oh, and they've been hired to take out a thieves guild.

They also found trainers, joined guilds, and leveled once (handled over the campaign message board). In doing so the fighter's getting pulled into a turf dispute between rival fighter's guilds on the docks and the thief's strengthening his ties to goblin organized crime.

Leveling has left them broke, except for a Ring of Protection +1, something called an Aster Diamond, which is tremendously valuable --to the right buyer, which in this case means a powerful monster like a demon or other planar horror-- and a war dog (who probably won't survive the stirges).

Part of this pace comes from the rules. They're quick, they don't sweat the details, and you can ignore anything that slows things down (like a proper implementation of the initiative and morale rules).

The funny things is, the combats have been fairly tactically-rich, full of environmental interaction -- it's just not the formalized kind found in 4e. Lots of slamming/jamming doors, seeking refuge, Webbing trees, jumping into lakes. I'm trying to avoid designing set-pieces, fights occur where they happen, and the things present on-scene are supposed to be "logical" (for certain definitions of...). Hopefully I can keep this up.

Part of the pace is simply me trying to run the campaign smarter. Keep the action moving. keep asking "what to you do now?", keep clear goals dangling in front of the group (the threat of poverty is a nice motivator).

Savage Worlds was a pretty fast system, too. We look forward to getting back into it, if the GM can ever escape from Canada. But so far it can't hold a candle, speed-wise, to a system we've collectively had years of experience with.

 

[Mallus]

Also: Otherworld makes some excellent stirge minis you can use in the game

Those are very nice!

But I think we'll keep our campaign mini-less. They slow us down too much (perhaps due to our middle-aged clumsiness. Mini set-up took forever in our 3e & 4e games).

 

[Mallus]

More obviousness...

AD&D isn't a particularly good, hmmm, make that 'robust', character modeling tool. In that regard, Savage Worlds is much better, without being a complex as games with full-blown point-buy systems like HERO.

It does it's basic archetypes well, and after that, you just have to go with it. I used to think this was a minus, but now I'm coming around to idea it's a neutral feature, maybe even a slight plus.

So making a lightly-armored fighter isn't really viable. So what? So characters don't have a lot of mechanical bells and whistles. Big deal. Last night, we determined the former cabinet-maker M-U has some ability to detect secret doors, because of his intimate knowledge of hinges (this chance increases if the door is made of wood!).

We're getting just enough detail from the mechanics to resolve actions and to extrapolate more well-rounded characters.

(of course, I also enjoy the company of a group who doesn't mind me winging any and all things...)

 

[thedungeondelver]

More obviousness...

AD&D isn't a particularly good, hmmm, make that 'robust', character modeling tool.

The best character modeling tools are the players imaginations. (Now there are plenty of people who dislike me who are breaking their left mouse-buttons clicking REPORT right now because they think I'm being a smug dick (AGAIN, HARRUMPH HARRUMPH) but let me explain ):

Way back at the turn of the century I ran T1 VILLAGE OF HOMMLET with a lead in to TEMPLE; we had a really diverse player base including a guy who'd never done pen-and-paper games (he grokked them though, he was an EVERQUEST player, played DIABLO etc.) and was also a big fan of Japanese cartoons and comics so he kind of pictured himself in that context. His g/f at the time? Big fan of RED SONJA - thought of herself in Robert E. Howard terms. Everyone else in the game had a different way of looking at themselves. At the end of the day they were still rolling 1d20 to-hit, tracking hit points, casting spells...but each player had a unique vision as to how it was going off in their heads. The "anime fighter fan" asked if he could move his allotted 15' in melee in this tumbling, diving, leaping across a table and sliding into his foe way - I said, "Sure!" Red had a tendency to use the charge tactic (by Mithras!) at every opportunity, plowing under anything in her way, leaving a fighter-sized hole behind her. There were no special rules for that but it didn't break up the flow of the game for them to describe them performing their actions with a little extra flair.

Now someone might ask "Well if it was so cool why not give them a bonus to do that?" Because stopping to roll dice at that point would have broken up the flow of the game.

Players cast themselves in what ever context you'll let them. Offload the heavy processing onto their imaginations. They'll do the rest.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Those are very nice!

But I think we'll keep our campaign mini-less. They slow us down too much (perhaps due to our middle-aged clumsiness. Mini set-up took forever in our 3e & 4e games).

I'm not gainsaying your decision to use minis but remember with a good campaign they're tabletop dressing; they give a rough idea of where things are and what's happening. You can be abstract with minis. Although I think going completely mini-less can be fun, too!

 

[grodog]

I'm not gainsaying your decision to use minis but remember with a good campaign they're tabletop dressing; they give a rough idea of where things are and what's happening. You can be abstract with minis.

Yes, definitely: I use them as much as a way to snapshot who's roughly where when exploring a room/area, as much as for combat. I often don't get as specific as "well, your mini's by the 2nd archway, therefore..." since the PCs' actions will change more quickly than the minis get updated. Then, when/if we need to be more specific, we just update the minis---or not---as the moment seems to warrant.

For me, minis are mostly inspirational eye-candy, rather than tactical tools for exact relationships.

Although I think going completely mini-less can be fun, too!

Definitely!

 

[thedungeondelver]

For me, minis are mostly inspirational eye-candy, rather than tactical tools for exact relationships.

If that's so then DWARVEN FORGE (stoppit firefox, "Dwarven" is too a word!) is eye-seven-course meal with appetizer, dessert cart, amuse bouche, aperitif and brandy and cigars by the fire afterward.

 

[Marx420]

Love me some AD&D.

I feel it's time for some for some slime, the green kind...

 

[Mallus]

The best character modeling tools are the players imaginations.

Agreed. But... (I'll get back to this)

Everyone else in the game had a different way of looking at themselves. At the end of the day they were still rolling 1d20 to-hit, tracking hit points, casting spells...but each player had a unique vision as to how it was going off in their heads. The "anime fighter fan" asked if he could move his allotted 15' in melee in this tumbling, diving, leaping across a table and sliding into his foe way - I said, "Sure!" Red had a tendency to use the charge tactic (by Mithras!) at every opportunity, plowing under anything in her way, leaving a fighter-sized hole behind her. There were no special rules for that but it didn't break up the flow of the game for them to describe them performing their actions with a little extra flair.

Sound great!

Now someone might ask "Well if it was so cool why not give them a bonus to do that?" Because stopping to roll dice at that point would have broken up the flow of the game.

Right... keep things moving. Right now, I'm doing what I did when I ran 2nd edition: if a PC wants to perform a stunt, I'll take into account their stats, how they have described their PC, and either rule "yes" or "no" or have them roll under a ability score -- nothing more, no flipping through rule books to reacquaint myself with a subsystem.

What I lose in consistency, granularity, scaling, and/or niche-protection I more than make up for in raw speed!

Players cast themselves in what ever context you'll let them. Offload the heavy processing onto their imaginations. They'll do the rest.

I agree with the spirit of this, and my players have no lack of imagination, however they're also like most other gamers I've known: periodically they're interested in (more) detailed mechanical representation of their character's abilities. Or they'll use (the more complicated) mechanics as a form inspiration, having them feed back into the fictional character they're imagining (example: a large part of of my 4e paladin's overall characterization, including details about his species, came from my vulgar ans joking attempt at rationalizing how marking works in-game).

This desire for more detailed character representation has with the hobby from the beginning (c.f. Runequest developing out of OD&D, or HERO/Champions), and it's become the dominant mode of D&D since the advent of 3e.

What interests me (right now) is how it absolutely *doesn't* result in better characters, neither from a fictional standpoint nor a playability one (as your anecdote about the anime guy and Red Sonja in Hommlet neatly illustrates). It *does* have an --at least for me and my group-- an undeniable "gearhead" appeal. Fashioning PC's out of a large body of mechanics becomes a pleasure unto itself -- and like another one of my favorite hobbies, namely the drinking of booze, it also comes with a big headache, namely using those more complex PC's in actual play.

My group is at least half-gearhead. They like to imagine and mess with/marry to the mechanics. My hope is that I can keep them entertained in the absence of (more) detailed character options. I'm quickly being reminded that AD&D has such a weird, wild, baroque and swing-y set of monsters, magical effects, and other character-murdering situations that keeping things intriguing shouldn't be too difficult.

Also, each session, I say a little mantra to myself: let as much of the game as possible emerge from the dice (and tables!). Numerous posts by [MENTION=26473]The Shaman[/MENTION] have drilled that into my head. I owe him one for that...