mapping programs

[Jupp]

I use the Neverwinternights Toolset to create maps almost all the time. I then make a screenshot of the area and print it out. The maps looks quite nice and you have grids on them. I used Dunjinni before but this program is as slow as a snail and it uses an insane amount of memory and CPU cycles because it runs on Java :\

Sometimes I just sketch a map really fast on my Wacom Cintiq with Alias Sketchbook Pro and print out that one, it always depends how the map is used lapter on...

 

[Steel_Wind]

I have both CC2Pro and Dundjinni Platinum.

And I know how to use Photoshop at a basic level and would be classed a "power user" with Neverwinter Nights Toolset too for that matter.

CC2Pro has a learning curve far beyond what its output is worth. The maps look artistically dated to me and I think its vector based technology is well past its prime. The CAD roots in the software architecture are not appreciated and get in the way at every turn.

Dundjinni is, in my opinion, a highly overrated p.o.s. and was a complete waste of money to me. It takes far too long to do anything complex with it. As Jupp mentioned, Dundjinni is Java based and is slower than all hell to use on any machine - and it just keep getting worse the more custom art you install in its directories.

I use an Athlon 3000 with 2 gig of Ram and a 128 meg video card. I get less lag with Half Life 2 running at 1280x1024 on max setings than I do with Dundjinni trying to make a basic map of a village.

The NWN toolset is easily the most powerful in terms of ease of use but it brings with it severe scale issues and difficulty with printing. If the scaling issues can be dealt with, NWN is the way to go for electronic imaging - but technical barriers to easy printing will make a this a poor choice for most people.

Really, I don't think either of CC2Pro or Dundjinni are worth the money. We need new RPG mapping software. It's as simple as that.

 

[diaglo]

i struggled with CC. but i think that was my machine's fault too.

 

[loki44]

I use the Neverwinternights Toolset to create maps almost all the time.

I'll have to check that out. Never got far into playing NWN and didn't investigate using any other features like the Toolset. Maybe I can get some use out of that game after all.

 

[diaglo]

I'll have to check that out. Never got far into playing NWN and didn't investigate using any other features like the Toolset. Maybe I can get some use out of that game after all.

there are a bunch of converted older modules for NWN on the net.

 

[loki44]

there are a bunch of converted older modules for NWN on the net.

I played very briefly in one based on Tegel Manor (see Yahoo group: tegelvillage). I'm just not much of a computer gamer.

So, when people are saying that they're using the NWN toolset to create maps, are these maps for use with the NWN game, or something like screenshots that can be printed out?

 

[Insight]

CC2 is only worth the time and effort if you are going to be either building a world from scratch or converting an existing world to the CC2 format. If you're using an existing world, or don't need a large world map, CC2 may be more than you need.

In terms of ease of use, I would have to say that CC2 is fairly easy to use if you are familiar with how graphics programs or drawing programs work. It does take some work to get proficient with CC2, but as others have said, the tutorials go a long way to bridging the learning gap.

 

[Orius]

I'll have to check that out. Never got far into playing NWN and didn't investigate using any other features like the Toolset. Maybe I can get some use out of that game after all.

My response is, "Meh." NWN relies very heavily on a square grid, so using the Toolset to make maps, and then taking a screenshop of the map in game probably would work poorly, because everything would be aligned on right angles. NWN does things this way supposedly for optimal net gaming performance, and it works well in that regard, but traditional D&D uses a lot of stuff like 45 degree angled corridors, round rooms and such that would be difficult at best to work with in NWN. Another problem is that the grids in NWN are 1 square = 10m. So trying to use them to make D&D maps based on feet also introduces and ugly need for customary - metric conversions. You can't really do narrow 5' corridors with the toolset, the most narrow corridors seems to be about 10 - 15 meters wide. Again, it's somewhat necessary with the 3d game engine, because cramped spaces make things really hard to see unless you adjust the camera angle (and there's a lot of adjusting). So dungeons made with NWN are going to have a bigger scale than traditional D&D.

 

[Steel_Wind]

My response is, "Meh." NWN relies very heavily on a square grid, so using the Toolset to make maps, and then taking a screenshop of the map in game probably would work poorly, because everything would be aligned on right angles.

There are scaling issues, yes, but that's simply a matter of the scale factor on the art necessitated by AI pathfinding in the game code. If the purpose you seek to use it for does not have to actually run a module - but is designed only to create maps - you can alter the scale using the scaler in NWmax, a 3d modeling script created by Joco, a member of DLA and the scaling issues go away.

The scale wizard in NWmax was designed so a complete newbie could use it. It runs within gmax - also a free modeling program. Normally, gmax game packs are licensed to developers by discreet to ship with their game at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. We designed a little util that runs outside of gmax - again for free - so that gmax can save and load NWN model files seamlessly. The end result is that members of the NWN community have access to professional level 3d tools at a cost of ZERO dollars and ZERO cents. NWmax is the standard modeling script in the community and has been for a long time now. Even artists we work with at BioWare now use it on occasion as we offer features that BioWare's scripts do not. NWmax for gmax and gmax itself are free.

As for everything being at right angles - again - this need not be so. It is the way pathfinding works in the game that requires these hard angles and large scales. If maps are your only goal, there is nothing to prevent you from taking a building and creating it as a placeable object. NWmax to the rescue again. Many haks available on NWvault already do this.

THe difference between a placeable object and a tile is an important one. A placable object may be placed anywhere at any angle and you can group them close together too. This means for creating village and town maps, you simply drop your buildings down exactly where you want them, and adjust the angles simply rotating it using the mouse - any angle you want 0 to 360 degrees - and Bob's your uncle.

The square grid issue vanishes. The right angle issue vanishes. The scale of the building issue vanishes. All of a sudden, you have an extremely powerful and incredbily flexible mapping program that anyone can use to do in minutes what CC2Pro and Dundjinni would take days to accomplish.

While what you say is true of STOCK NWN - it is not true of the NWN toolset if you use hak paks to make the toolset serve the purpose you want it for (map making for PnP games) instead of creating solo and multiplayer computerr games.

The NWN toolset is easily the most powerful program of the three - but it's not quite there yet. With some tweaking - it can be.

 

[Sigurd]

Dunjinni License doesnt allow Publishing?

I read that the Dunjinni license doesn't allow you to publish or profit from things you create in the program. I find that a show stopper. Its greedy and steps on dreams of what I could do with a work.

I hope its not true.

I will very likely never publish anything I create beyond my gaming group but a man likes to dream and locking into a program that limits you that way sucks.

S