Martial Rituals

[DanmarLOK]

Hmmm in going with the last thought, perhaps allow 1 'combo' to be practiced per tier per day and make each one increasingly complex and worth more? +1 to hit (+2/+3) or +2 to damage (+4/+6) as an encounter. Allow them to change their combo's once a day after an extended rest. They have to announce at the start of their combo attempt and if they fail one step of it it blows their combo shot for the encounter.

So a heroic combo for a rogue might be Piercing Strike followed by Tortuous Strike and grant either +1 to hit or +2 damage against that opponent for perhaps Wisdom bonus +1 per tier.

A paragon combo might be Piercing Strike followed by Setup Strike followed by Rogue's Luck.

Of course at this point we're not really talkinga bout the OP idea but instead are delving into combo's.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

How about something like this:

Feat
Devotional Mastery
Prerequisite: Wis 13
Benefit: You can master and perform devotions of your level or lower.

Now you can simply devise various 'Devotions' which a character can master. These devotions COULD be anything, but they might generally be along the following sorts of lines.

Inner Strength
Level: 1
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: until next extended rest

You focus your willpower and gain access to the Tower of Inner Strength power until you next take an extended rest.

Tower of Inner Strength [Devotion Power]
You reach into your mind and use your devotion to find the will to resist.
Daily - Psychic
Immediate Interrupt when targeted by an attack vs Will Personal
Effect: Add a +1 bonus to your will defense against the triggering attack.

Obviously there could be a whole plethora of these things. It requires a feat to have access to them, but the feat is nice in that it is fairly open ended and gets better as you go up in level and have access to more powerful devotions. However it is also reasonably limited because you do have to choose at the start of the day what sort of devotion to use. How exactly limited that is will be determined by exactly what the devotion does (they don't have to give you access to a power, but the effect should be one time or otherwise reasonably limited). Some of them could be fairly general and give very weak bonuses, others might be highly specialized (enhancing a specific existing feat or power) and give a stronger bonus to balance out the more limited situational applicability.

I think it gives the desired flavor and also brings in a mechanism for allowing characters to prepare themselves for a specific situation they think they will likely face during the next few encounters. USUALLY those sorts of things were pretty limited and that was a flaw in special purpose spells and such in older editions, but there ARE still times when you would like to be able to do something like that, you KNOW what you are likely to face.

There is really no particular reason for these to be limited to Martial characters either. Admittedly some Arcane characters have rituals already and wizards have some spell flexibility
built in via the spell book mechanism, but I can see Clerics and Paladins also having access to devotions. I don't think it would hurt anything.

 

[Smeelbo]

I reread the PHB on Rituals last night, and thought about it some more. First, I am not sure Martial Characters really need Rituals. Of all the character classes, Martial Characters currently have the most options, so why do they need more?

Second, if Martial Ritual essentially becomes a variable feat, that is, you pick the effect you need right now, then it probably becomes the best martial feat, which is probably not what you want.

Third, it must cost something, otherwise characters will simply mash the Martial Ritual button every chance they get. So at the very least, you have to eat so many GP of Residium to power the ritual ("Just a teaspoon o' residium makes the meditation go down...").

Fourth, it must key off a skill. I recommend Endurance, the question being, can you keep up your katas or whatever for however long it takes to complete the ritual.

Finally, looking at the structure of the existing rituals, you can mostly classify them into ten minute and one hour casting times. My advice would be that ten minute rituals granted you a single use of a Daily Power that once activated would be in effect until the end of the current encounter, while hour rituals would be in effect until you took an extended rest.

If Martial Rituals are cheap and better than a good feat, they are broken.

Smeelbo

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I reread the PHB on Rituals last night, and thought about it some more. First, I am not sure Martial Characters really need Rituals. Of all the character classes, Martial Characters currently have the most options, so why do they need more?

Second, if Martial Ritual essentially becomes a variable feat, that is, you pick the effect you need right now, then it probably becomes the best martial feat, which is probably not what you want.

Third, it must cost something, otherwise characters will simply mash the Martial Ritual button every chance they get. So at the very least, you have to eat so many GP of Residium to power the ritual ("Just a teaspoon o' residium makes the meditation go down...").

Fourth, it must key off a skill. I recommend Endurance, the question being, can you keep up your katas or whatever for however long it takes to complete the ritual.

Finally, looking at the structure of the existing rituals, you can mostly classify them into ten minute and one hour casting times. My advice would be that ten minute rituals granted you a single use of a Daily Power that once activated would be in effect until the end of the current encounter, while hour rituals would be in effect until you took an extended rest.

If Martial Rituals are cheap and better than a good feat, they are broken.

Smeelbo

I'm not sure martial characters NEED rituals either. It was a topic of discussion and its always fun to consider what the possibilities are. It might add a bit to the game, but truthfully the options available in the core rules to all classes are pretty wide ranging already. MP adds some interesting builds and class features, but the core classes are pretty well set as is.

My proposal was intended to address the 'variable feat' concept in such a way that the result is a bit of flexibility at the cost of providing a reduced capability. If the various effects which can be accessed via this mechanism are fairly weak, then it becomes a reasonable trade off. The character can retool a bit between extended rests, but a dedicated feat would produce a stronger effect. Thus the ritual based effects MIGHT displace one or two of the more specialized feats, but probably still only for certain classes and builds.

I think monetary costing in general is a questionable game mechanic. Frankly I find the whole 'residuum' mechanic to be rather awkward and hokey myself. Inevitably players don't keep careful track of these sorts of things and it causes endless headaches or else devolves down into 'well, basically it doesn't cost enough to bother with'. A very high ritual casting cost may be pretty effective, but even then it is an awkward mechanic. If the GM needs the characters to be able to do something he's got to then come up with a plot device to avoid paying for it, and if he doesn't want them to do it AT ALL, then the ritual simply shouldn't be available. Basically a rule mechanic should be balanced within the framework of its utilization and cost should be relegated to the meta game where it becomes a campaign specific thing. So overall gold piece style costs to me are not a way to balance out game mechanics.

I don't see why it HAS to 'key off a skill', it can, and thats fine, but I don't know of a reason why that is absolutely necessary. I suppose an Endurance skill check requirement would work. It seems to be an undervalued skill in general anyway. Obviously it also reduces the overall value of the whole feature as well, since the ritual might fail on any given day.

As I structured it these things would give you access to some 'effect', and the suggested type of effect would be access to a special power. This power would generally be a daily (but could be encounter or even at-will in theory). This pretty much automatically puts the effects at a level well below standard feats, which mostly are 'always on' effects. The character would have the effect available until an extended rest/24 hours. If it isn't used within that time then the ritual has to be performed again.

At higher levels the available effects could be somewhat more extensive, so a paragon level ritual might grant a very minor at-will or continuous effect, or a daily use 'lasts till end of encounter' effect. At epic level the effects might be about on a par with standard heroic tier feats.

Obviously if they are better than a good feat then they aren't balanced. As I said, cost to me is not a balancing mechanic, but at least in the variation I suggested I THINK they would be weaker than a feat. It would really be up to GMs to insure that whatever specific rituals they added were balanced. Another consideration is that the whole feat itself might become too good if a LARGE number of these rituals were available to a specific character.

Overall my feeling is not to bother with the whole thing, but it could be an interesting mechanic for a specific variant class to be built around.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I reread the PHB on Rituals last night, and thought about it some more. First, I am not sure Martial Characters really need Rituals. Of all the character classes, Martial Characters currently have the most options, so why do they need more?

Second, if Martial Ritual essentially becomes a variable feat, that is, you pick the effect you need right now, then it probably becomes the best martial feat, which is probably not what you want.

Third, it must cost something, otherwise characters will simply mash the Martial Ritual button every chance they get. So at the very least, you have to eat so many GP of Residium to power the ritual ("Just a teaspoon o' residium makes the meditation go down...").

Fourth, it must key off a skill. I recommend Endurance, the question being, can you keep up your katas or whatever for however long it takes to complete the ritual.

Finally, looking at the structure of the existing rituals, you can mostly classify them into ten minute and one hour casting times. My advice would be that ten minute rituals granted you a single use of a Daily Power that once activated would be in effect until the end of the current encounter, while hour rituals would be in effect until you took an extended rest.

If Martial Rituals are cheap and better than a good feat, they are broken.

Smeelbo

I'm not sure martial characters NEED rituals either. It was a topic of discussion and its always fun to consider what the possibilities are. It might add a bit to the game, but truthfully the options available in the core rules to all classes are pretty wide ranging already. MP adds some interesting builds and class features, but the core classes are pretty well set as is.

My proposal was intended to address the 'variable feat' concept in such a way that the result is a bit of flexibility at the cost of providing a reduced capability. If the various effects which can be accessed via this mechanism are fairly weak, then it becomes a reasonable trade off. The character can retool a bit between extended rests, but a dedicated feat would produce a stronger effect. Thus the ritual based effects MIGHT displace one or two of the more specialized feats, but probably still only for certain classes and builds.

I think monetary costing in general is a questionable game mechanic. Frankly I find the whole 'residuum' mechanic to be rather awkward and hokey myself. Inevitably players don't keep careful track of these sorts of things and it causes endless headaches or else devolves down into 'well, basically it doesn't cost enough to bother with'. A very high ritual casting cost may be pretty effective, but even then it is an awkward mechanic. If the GM needs the characters to be able to do something he's got to then come up with a plot device to avoid paying for it, and if he doesn't want them to do it AT ALL, then the ritual simply shouldn't be available. Basically a rule mechanic should be balanced within the framework of its utilization and cost should be relegated to the meta game where it becomes a campaign specific thing. So overall gold piece style costs to me are not a way to balance out game mechanics.

I don't see why it HAS to 'key off a skill', it can, and thats fine, but I don't know of a reason why that is absolutely necessary. I suppose an Endurance skill check requirement would work. It seems to be an undervalued skill in general anyway. Obviously it also reduces the overall value of the whole feature as well, since the ritual might fail on any given day.

As I structured it these things would give you access to some 'effect', and the suggested type of effect would be access to a special power. This power would generally be a daily (but could be encounter or even at-will in theory). This pretty much automatically puts the effects at a level well below standard feats, which mostly are 'always on' effects. The character would have the effect available until an extended rest/24 hours. If it isn't used within that time then the ritual has to be performed again.

At higher levels the available effects could be somewhat more extensive, so a paragon level ritual might grant a very minor at-will or continuous effect, or a daily use 'lasts till end of encounter' effect. At epic level the effects might be about on a par with standard heroic tier feats.

Obviously if they are better than a good feat then they aren't balanced. As I said, cost to me is not a balancing mechanic, but at least in the variation I suggested I THINK they would be weaker than a feat. It would really be up to GMs to insure that whatever specific rituals they added were balanced. Another consideration is that the whole feat itself might become too good if a LARGE number of these rituals were available to a specific character.

Overall my feeling is not to bother with the whole thing, but it could be an interesting mechanic for a specific variant class to be built around.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think we can take martial rituals in a more interesting direction than bonuses to attack, etc. More like the arcane rituals already presented. Some ideas:

* Armor Harness - you spend extra time equipping your armor, reduce skill check penalty
* Arming Squire - you may equip a weapon/shield of your choice as a free action
* Suppress Condition - by meditating you suppress a condition until the end of combat
* Battle History - you research ancient military texts for helpful knowledge
* Gather Reserves - by meditating you improve the effects of your second wind
* Herculean Effort - spend healing surge to gain Strength bonus to lift/push

While not necessary, I think there's potential to develop the concept further.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

I think we can take martial rituals in a more interesting direction than bonuses to attack, etc. More like the arcane rituals already presented. Some ideas:
While not necessary, I think there's potential to develop the concept further.

I like your ideas a wee bit better - arcane rituals typically don't provide significant combat bonuses. If a ritual can be used to benefit a combat, typically it does so by changing the scene or tactical situation, and usually not in a way that would be consistently useful for every single combat.

Cartographist - thanks! I still worry, however, that even if restricted to certain combos, a ritual that provides a numerical combat boost isn't a good ritual, and should probably be a utility power or feat instead.
I think the idea of combos or katas as we tentatively explored in 3 or 4 short posts should possibly be divorced from the Martial Ritual idea, and forked to a new thread. I'll contemplate the idea further while I'm playing in tonight's game, to see if any good thoughts on implementation gel.

I do *really* like the idea of martial rituals, but it's hard to think of any that would provide something other than a combat edge. If you want to keep going on this track, don't let me stop you, and you're of course more than welcome to cherry-pick my seed of an idea and use it for your own purposes. Personally, I'll be happier if I can think of some good Martial Rituals (which aren't numerical bonuses to attacks/powers) to contribute to your thread, and/or think of a good set of feats or powers that *do* provide numerical bonuses using the idea of choreographed, pre-planned attack sequences that train the body to maximize the efficiency or effect of moves used together.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

Further notes -

I heard the intended effect when reading your pun involving my username. Good stuff.

I think there's room for martial rituals which allow the player to perform inhuman, legendary abilities that aren't necessarily magical but require a dash of magical power to unleash.

Mages who do this nonsense are called Ritualists, and the nonsense that they do is called a Ritual, right? How about warriors doing this nonsense being referred to as War Mystics, and the nonsense that they do being referred to as Legendary Acts, Acts of Legend, Legendary Feats, something like that?

Legendary Stunts should generally require Endurance, Heal, or History checks. Characters who aren't magically inclined will already have plenty of incentive to take the highly useful Acrobatics or Athletics skills. A case could possibly be made for some that use Intimidate, too...

For the flavor, I'd say "coat your weapon, fists, feet, or heart/chest with residuum" is a good default assumption. For certain acts, I could see allowing a War Mystic to DESTROY a magic item in the act of performing the ritual. This would provide a convenient parallel to Disenchant Magic Item that prevents War Mystics from being forced to depend on others to provide residuum.

For example, let's imagine a ritual that allows a War Mystic to remove a door, wall, or building (basically, any man-made construction, the size of which determines the DC of the check) that is in his way. The war mystic spends 10 minutes stretching his muscles and making practice swings. During that time, he also coats his fists with a paste of residuum and blood. OR, if he doesn't have enough residuum handy, he grabs a magic item, preferably a magic weapon. He then rips the magic item in half, or if it is a weapon, he bashes it against the offending structure.
He makes an Endurance check to determine whether he withstands the shockwaves of force that reverberate through the structure. If he rolls poorly, it means that he wasn't focused enough and allowed himself to be knocked back or injured into distraction from his task.
If he succeeds at the task, the structure crumbles into rubble, or is possibly even vaporized into dust if he rolls exceptionally well. If he used a magic item, the destruction of the item itself provides the residuum necessary for the ritual. Any excess residuum drifts to the floor, and all that is left of the item is an ancient-looking shattered blade, worn-out pair of gloves, etc.

Ooh - what if using an appropriate item type gave you a 10% discount on the residuum necessary for the ritual?

Stunts:
March of the Unstoppable General - Endurance check. You can travel without stopping to rest or sleep for a number of days based on how much residuum you expend. You do not receive the benefits of an extended rest, but each night you recover half of your healing surges. If you run or hustle more than once in a given 12 hour period, you fatigue yourself and can travel no further without rest. If you beat a higher DC, you can conscript allied creatures into your marching orders and extend the effects to them. Preferred item slot to destroy: Feet

Irrelevant Obstacle - Basically as described above in the example. Preferred item slot to destroy: gloves or weapon

The biggest foreseeable problem, to me, is that if they don't already have them, WotC will probably end up publishing Rituals that accomplish any effect we can think of.

 

[Smeelbo]

Existing rituals appear to exist specific situations: a locked door, distant travel, a dead or diseased ally. They also fall into one of nine categories: Binding, Creation, Deception, Divination, Exploration, Restoration, Scrying, Travel, and Warding. None of those look like to hit or damage bonuses, and indeed, few of the rituals are useful in combat. Indeed, none of those categories seems very martial.

The more I think about it, the less martial rituals make sense to me. Whatever it is, it's probably not a ritual. None of the suggested skills for martial rituals are knowledge based, whereas all the existing ritual skills are.

What will probably happen is that Arcane Power will introduce many rituals that are useful in combat. For example, these 3.5 spells might become 4E rituals: Message, Resist Energy (I'd bet money on that one), Whispering Wind, Geas, Animate Dead, Stone Shape, Planar Binding, Sending, Dream, Magic Jar, and so on. Spells that don't make sense as "powers."

So rather than try to shoe horn a variable martial feat into rituals, probably better just to come up with a variable feat, probably a chosen situational +1, resets on an extended rest, and is always worse than an existing feat. If you wanted it to be more powerful, it would need an additional cost, such as a healing surge, some penalty, an action point, or such.

Not as much fun, I know, but some of the rituals proposed here would come to dominate combat to the point where fighters would feel "entitled" to Martial Ritual as a bonus feat, since all fighters then "must" have Martial Ritual.

Smeelbo

 

[Quickleaf]

Existing rituals appear to exist specific situations: a locked door, distant travel, a dead or diseased ally. They also fall into one of nine categories: Binding, Creation, Deception, Divination, Exploration, Restoration, Scrying, Travel, and Warding. None of those look like to hit or damage bonuses, and indeed, few of the rituals are useful in combat. Indeed, none of those categories seems very martial.

True, there would be a need for new categories (Craft, Strategy, and Herculean Effort come to mind), though I could see Exploration working - the forced march idea dammt biscuit presented could fit into this category.

If we go the legendary skill use = martial ritual route, then looking to the d20 epic skill rules as well as action movie tropes might provide insight. Like an Acrobatics ritual that allows you to fall a great distance into a body of water without inury...I guess this would be like Endure Elements in that the ritual is "cast" when you anticipate bad weather...or in this case falling into a river.

The idea is that the 8 hours spent mastering the ritual is physical exercise, for example practicing cliff-diving.

The more I think about it, the less martial rituals make sense to me. Whatever it is, it's probably not a ritual. None of the suggested skills for martial rituals are knowledge based, whereas all the existing ritual skills are.

To be fair, a couple rituals are based off of Heal. Also, there is historical precedent for german fighting texts dating to the 1400s as well as "De Re Militaria" guides for feuding princes, so it's possible to use History for a couple martial rituals (or whatever we call tem).

Not as much fun, I know, but some of the rituals proposed here would come to dominate combat to the point where fighters would feel "entitled" to Martial Ritual as a bonus feat, since all fighters then "must" have Martial Ritual.

That's why I agree martial rituals should shy away from providing combat bonuses and need to focus on nifty tricks outside of combat. Some of those parkour videos got me thinking about rituals useful in a chase.