Martial Rituals

[Quickleaf]

Another signature weapon idea
It might always make its way back to its owner... if taken that person loses it or is forced to give it up to someone else who then has it stolen or it gets stuck in a wound (or in between floor stones after a severe attack).. or whatever and by seeming happen chance it eventually ends up in the hands of its rightful owner.

Interesting idea, and the one about it becoming spontaneously magical too. I'll have to mull on those a bit.

There's a group of rituals in Mongoose Publishing's Quintessential Fighter which are, in fact, called "martial rituals" and are meant for the less magically inclined party members. I can't comment on their usefulness, unfortunately; I don't own the book.

Someone else mentioned that book a while back, but I don't know anything about it.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

I like this idea, but I think it's been overdeveloped. For one, they are so much like the magic rituals that the only thing missing is the magic. So, in the spirit of friendly critique:

Campfire Watch: Having a character awake on watch gives the party an active perception check already, and this ritual duplicates a bardic ability/ritual in PHB II. Finally, 1 healing surge is not enough of a sacrifice for something a player will use every night and provides a benefit greater than the one healing surge it costs.

Forced March: I think this should be either Endurance or Diplomacy for a check

Gauge Opponent: Seeing an opponent in action before a fight is a corner-case, and I think this could be better handled by a knowledge check

Herculean Effort: This steps on Feat of Strength

Leap of Faith: Far too good and steps on Feather Fall

Modify Trap: I think this would be better covered by an expansion of the thievery skill

Scavenge: seems like an attempt to bypass the improvised weapon rules.

Scout: This is covered by a perception check

Signature Weapon: This seems to step on the Kensai paragon path

Sleuth's eye: No text, but beware the expansion of the Perception Skill

Strengthen the defenses: I think this codifies what creative players can already do, but the duration should be permanent, and there should be a time component to prepare the site that scales with the change

Sundering Bash: Steps on feat of strength

Warrior's Code: This is either diplomacy or role-playing, but does not need a ritual and does not need mechanical support.

Weapon Form: too good to be true and steps on the magic weapon that can change into any weapon.

Work Through Pain: Too good to be true, and really should be Will-based

 

[Garthanos]

Herculean Effort: This steps on Feat of Strength
Sundering Bash: Steps on feat of strength

I think they need to follow closer the idea in Feat of Strength.

I kind of like the idea of Feat of Strength
fueled by a healing surges...

Feat of Strength gives a burst of strength...based on a nature roll
19 or lower +1
20–29 +2
30–39 +5
40 or higher +10

but as a normal magical ritual it has the herb bag and incense
mixed with affecting others and 10 minutes and 30gp to use cost.

A meditation that only affected self and involved expending a healing surge
could be different enough to me.

Signature Weapon: This seems to step on the Kensai paragon path

Hmm I would say there is nothing in the kensai paragon that currently
does this... are you saying there should be or are you thinking that it couldn't or shouldn't be a martial ritual? when the effect could be... but isnt currently
in a paragon path?
Note the swordmage has a weapon binding ritual which lets him summon back his weapon or reconstruct it... this is rather similar to something that exists currently as a ritual as well..(and could include the reconstruction in an advanced form of the same) no harm no foul...

Weapon Form: too good to be true and steps on the magic weapon that can change into any weapon.

Huhhhh weapon "form" does not refer to a weapon changing shape but rather using a sequence of actions to derive power from that sequence. This makes me think you arent reading the ideas carerfully enough to be "critical".

Working through the pain..is too powerful as you call it too good to be true...so lets just point out what makes it over the top so if the idea can be improved on.. it might be. Constructive criticism means saying why.

It puts a pause on a single "condition" effect that includes presumedly any of the following.
BLINDED DAZED DEAFENED DOMINATED DYING HELPLESS IMMOBILIZED PETRIFIED PRONE RESTRAINED SLOWED STUNNED SURPRISED UNCONSCIOUS WEAKENED
Aren't many of these already or at least often cancellable with a saving throw? Is your character foregoing making saves the condition normally granted in order to suppress the state in a temporary way? You are left in a state where you cant spend any healing surges usually this means can't heal presumedly you couldn't regain any healing surges either right?

You could specify a single condition which normally allows saves to end and that you are foregoing the save to hold off the effect, that might not be enough... for instance
you are now dominated... but with no skill check you suppress the condition?

 

[Quickleaf]

Ok, a quick disclaimer: I only have the PHB, DMG, and MM. So some of the things you're talking about I have no clue.

Huhhhh weapon "form" does not refer to a weapon changing shape but rather using a sequence of actions to derive power from that sequence. This makes me think you arent reading the ideas carerfully enough to be "critical".

Garthanos, I recently changed Weapon Form so that it allows you to mimic another weapon with your same weapon. It sounds slightly different but similar to what Hadrian talks about.

Working through the pain...

I changed this one so that it only operates DURING a short rest. Since rounds don't stop after a combat encounter ends, if you're suffering ongoing damage or some other persistent condition, you can temporarily put off making saves during the short rest (which rest of party benefits from even if you don't). Of course, you can make other preparations during the rest. I hope it reads as I intend it to.

I like this idea, but I think it's been overdeveloped. For one, they are so much like the magic rituals that the only thing missing is the magic.

I think this gets back to a core debate about how all powers in 4e feel similar but play differently. While I haven't playtested any of these, that's my guess for how they'll compare with magic rituals. Just a hunch.

So, in the spirit of friendly critique:

Thanks, great feedback!

Campfire Watch: Having a character awake on watch gives the party an active perception check already, and this ritual duplicates a bardic ability/ritual in PHB II. Finally, 1 healing surge is not enough of a sacrifice for something a player will use every night and provides a benefit greater than the one healing surge it costs.

Ah, didn't know about the bardic ritual, thanks. Don't necessarily agree with your other points, but duplicating another class' features I don't want to do. Back to the drawing board.

Forced March: I think this should be either Endurance or Diplomacy for a check

Interesting...

Gauge Opponent: Seeing an opponent in action before a fight is a corner-case, and I think this could be better handled by a knowledge check

Hold on. I agree that the ability to determine a creature's powers duplicates a monster knowledge check. However, a monster knowledge check can't tell you a creature's role or level. Furthermore, this is intended to be used with NPCs, which follow different rules than monsters. Making a Nature/History check seems kind of goofy to size up a human opponent, doesn't it?

Herculean Effort: This steps on Feat of Strength

What's that? Sounds like another example of great minds think alike.

Leap of Faith: Far too good and steps on Feather Fall

Not at all. This ONLY works when diving into water. Period. It's a circumstancial ability that keys off Acrobatics - a rare trained skill.

Modify Trap: I think this would be better covered by an expansion of the thievery skill

Maybe. However there was a Dragon article about creating traps that I was going to use as guidelines.

Scavenge: seems like an attempt to bypass the improvised weapon rules.

Hmmm. Do you think it's fair to allow a skilled warrior with time to prepare to bypass the improvised weapon rules? I don't know, I'm sincerely asking.

Scout: This is covered by a perception check
Actually, that's not true. Perception doesn't allow you to notice a secret door across a chasm or to search something you can't physically reach. Scout does. That's the key difference.

Signature Weapon: This seems to step on the Kensai paragon path
Actually, I see it as complementing. 1st, nothing in Kensai has a similar ability to this rite. 2nd, this is a rite a Kensai would love to take.

Sleuth's eye: No text, but beware the expansion of the Perception Skill
Sorry, this is a work-in-progress. Why the concern about the Perception skill in particular?

Strengthen the defenses: I think this codifies what creative players can already do, but the duration should be permanent, and there should be a time component to prepare the site that scales with the change
Yeah it is codifying something creative players can already do...but that's how I view much of the ruleset anyhow. I mean a wizard says "I spy on him through my magic" and we need rules, but a ranger says "I barricade the door with whatever I can find" and we should wing it?

Another concern about codifying martial rituals I've heard is that they limit what PCs without the Ritual Warrior feat can do. My rebuttal is to look at how useful Ritual Caster! So many archetypes of magic are in there... are they limiting those magic-users without Ritual Caster?

Warrior's Code: This is either diplomacy or role-playing, but does not need a ritual and does not need mechanical support.

I think you're right about this one. I'll cut it out.

Weapon Form: too good to be true and steps on the magic weapon that can change into any weapon.

Why too good? And what's this magic weapon? (I don't have AV)

 

[Garthanos]

Garthanos, I recently changed Weapon Form so that it allows you to mimic another weapon with your same weapon. It sounds slightly different but similar to what Hadrian talks about.

OK picture me confused. I seem to be always responding to an older version .
perhaps you should have worked out changes in the html / forum post and kept updating there.... I updated my pdf and other criticisms make more sense.

The Feat of Strength is along with the Swordmage is in FR players handbook... shouldn't have been called "Feat of" as game has that as a reserved word from my perspective. While I suppose Surge of Strength could be confused with healing surges ;-).

 

[Garthanos]

I think this gets back to a core debate about how all powers in 4e feel similar but play differently. While I haven't playtested any of these, that's my guess for how they'll compare with magic rituals. Just a hunch.

I agree... on that point... kings magic is magic of a different flavor warlord flavor no doubt.

Also it might be worthwhile to expand some a skill that ought to be able to accomplish some effect so that they are covered... ie
If perception doesn't allow you to notice a secret door across a chasm or to search something you can't physically reach... then perhaps perception is being too narrowly defined, I am not sure we should need a martial rite to accomplish that expansion? Perhaps all it would take would be a higher DC if you can't physically reach the area.

 

[Garthanos]

Garthanos, I recently changed Weapon Form so that it allows you to mimic another weapon with your same weapon. It sounds slightly different but similar to what Hadrian talks about.

The term "Forms" is sometimes called "Kata" it is used in the martial arts to signify exercising through a series of moves in a practiced order to help instill muscle memory and learn good transitions between moves that may be otherwise un-related.

I thought I would mention you went from something having a real world meaning and connotation... what you changed it to doesn't make sense except for somebody wanting a literal English translation. I think this is what was meant by Hadrian when he said you may have overdeveloped the idea.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hmm, well I was following the rule that rites/rituals don't have a direct effect on combat. The older version of "Weapon Form" gave you a really nice benefit in combat, making it too useful. The current version makes it so that it's not so much the weapon as the warrior who wields it. For example, a skilled swordfighter might use the flat of his blade, treating his sword as a warhammer, or he could shift to a half-pommel grip and make lunging piercing attacks, using it as a spear. This makes it particularly useful to adopt a different form depending on the type of battle you're anticipating.

I like the idea of a kata, but I think it's better implemented in another mechanic besides rituals.

 

[Garthanos]

I like the idea of a kata, but I think it's better implemented in another mechanic besides rituals.

Possibly the problem is however the way kata are used is a very "daily ritual".
Ah hah... perhaps it needs to be a daily martial utility.

hmmm... Lets see here is the uses and limits of realistic kata.
a clean transition makes the follow up action slightly faster and easier to predict but better in quality (in real life somebody who is using a single style of martial art can end up having too much pattern in their moves and it is as much a flaw of regulated Kata as anything.)

I think my encounter recovery rule would be of use for simulating this... where a particularly good useage of an encounter or daily allows reusage.
If you use a kata you can improve the performance but with an even higher difficulty for reusage.(because you have made it easier to read).

I guess the above takes it firmly out of discussion here but sounds rather cool

 

[dammitbiscuit]

PHB II is introducing a no-prereqs feat that gives a scaling attack bonus based on what tier you're in. You could now potentially use your ORIGINAL idea, with the attack bonus, that we all talked you out of. Simply state that it is an alternative to the PHB II feat and can't stack with it. Maybe differentiate it a bit, flavorize it.