D&D 5E Martial Techniques

Cyvris

First Post
I was a big fan of how 4e gave Martial characters interesting attack options that had an impact on the battlefield besides "damage" and was sad to see how this was stripped from them with each subsequent 5e playtest. I know some players prefer "Martial" characters to make nothing but melee attacks that only deal damage, but that honestly is pretty boring. To that end I've designed a series of "Martial Techniques" more or less equivalent in power to the various caster Cantrips, especially those in the SCAG, for classes of the more martial persuasion to gain. My biggest goal was to avoid stepping on the Battlemaster Fighter's toes. These certainly dip into her area of expertise, but don't gain any Superiority Dice bonuses, functioning more like "At-Wills" from 4e than anything else. This is a first pass, and I'm planning to let the group I DM for use these at our next game.

First draft is here.
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I like where your heads at.

I don't think the restrictions need to be as severe, for lack of a better word, as they are. As long as they cost an Action, they should be balanced. Yes, they are an improvement on the standard attack, but I don't actually think that will be a problem.

Also, I'd give the rogue 1 extra as well, unless you ditch the restriction against using a technique in the same turn as using cunning action.

But there is no reason a ranger shouldn't e able to use a technique after casting a bonus action spell, or that a monk shouldn't be able to use one and then Flurry, imo.

I'll report back with any issues or advice I have about specific ones later.

So far so good, through.
 

Eubani

Hero
Good base idea, just watch out for the triad alliance (Spellcaster Supremacy League, Grognards and H4ters). They tend to operate under the rule that martial characters cannot have nice things and will start off with claims of anything more than "I attack" doing hp damage is magic or is unbalanced on anything except for magic users. Be prepared for many a dishonest argument.

Joking aside I wish the designers had stances or at wills from the beginning. A question I have is that the abilities say they take 1 action, by that do you mean 1 attack or a full action?
 
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Cyvris

First Post
I don't think the restrictions need to be as severe, for lack of a better word, as they are. As long as they cost an Action, they should be balanced. Yes, they are an improvement on the standard attack, but I don't actually think that will be a problem.

When I first put these together, I had them far less "limited" and actually had them split between classes. I'd posted it elsewhere, and the discussion quickly turned to "This is how you break this with this class feature" etc, mostly centered around the Barbarian and Rage Strike. From that feedback, I decided to rein them in a little. I'd like them to work better with the "Extra" Attack feature, but the damage scaling takes care of that. Tweaking them to work with Bonus Actions/Monks Flurry etc will be interesting, but not too difficult.

The original version was far more sprawling too, with different Techniques for each class, some of which were more or less class features already (Double Attack, Rogue movement etc). I had included a whole section on Fighter and Paladin marks, but now the Knight brought that back so I'm going to have to overhaul all those ideas. Also aiming to create some sort SCAG like Cantrips for the Cleric and Druid (maybe even "wild attacks" for animal form).

Joking aside I wish the designers had stances or at wills from the beginning. A question I have is that the abilities say they take 1 action, by that do you mean 1 attack or a full action?

The wording there was trying to emulate a Spells "Action" Casting Time, so basically your attack for the round. A character would still be able to Move. Sort of wish 5e divided "actions" on a turn a little clearer.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Stances would be great. They almost got there with fighting styles.

The Barbarian issue can probably be solved without making these not work at all with other class features.

For me, that just complicates things and makes the use of techniques too clunky to be worth it.

For actions: you need them to requires an Action. That is your attack for the round, because you only get 1 Action per round. Using your Action still leaves you able to move, and to use a bonus action if you have a feature that lets you use a bonus action.

Hope that helps.
 

Colder

Explorer
The multiclassing rules aren't very well-written because you say theyre based on character level, but then say that casters that multiclass into martial classes use their martial class levels. It would be clearer to say that you cannot gain the feature more than once, and you add your martial class levels together to determine the number of techniques you know.
 

Cyvris

First Post
The multiclassing rules aren't very well-written because you say theyre based on character level, but then say that casters that multiclass into martial classes use their martial class levels. It would be clearer to say that you cannot gain the feature more than once, and you add your martial class levels together to determine the number of techniques you know.

Multiclassing was one of those last minute "shoot, how do I stop this being silly overpowered when dipping between classes that learn these, but also make a two level dip worth it for other classes". Your suggestion is elegant though, and I'll probably include something close to it with a "you can only ever know X number max at Y level" into my next revision. Certain characters (Clerics/Warlocks) might want to dip into a class to gain these, so I don't want to punish them for doing so. Of course granting those classes some MBA enhancing Cantrips eliminates that issue.
 


Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Good base idea, just watch out for the triad alliance (Spellcaster Supremacy League, Grognards and H4ters). They tend to operate under the rule that martial characters cannot have nice things and will start off with claims of anything more than "I attack" doing hp damage is magic or is unbalanced on anything except for magic users.

Irony alert:

Be prepared for many a dishonest argument.
 

I was a big fan of how 4e gave Martial characters interesting attack options that had an impact on the battlefield besides "damage" and was sad to see how this was stripped from them with each subsequent 5e playtest. I know some players prefer "Martial" characters to make nothing but melee attacks that only deal damage, but that honestly is pretty boring.
You're simplifying things a bit.
The attack options were stripped out in response to playtest feedback. The Martial Damage Dice were cool, but playtest feedback showed that people generally felt they were "wasting" their dice by using them on anything but damage. Because tripping or stopping reactions or blinding are nice, but the best status condition to put on a creature is always "dead".

My personal perspective is that I don't want fighters and martials only dealing damage. Buuut... I don't want certain maneuvers codified in the rules. If there is a dedicated "trip" manoeuvre, it generally means you can't trip someone without that power. Or you have to make tripping so ineffectual or have such a high cost it's not worth doing.
The more you work under the assumption that you can only do the codified powers on your character sheet, the less you can do... anything else. It's trading the infinite possibilities of imagination for two to five hard coded options.

To that end I've designed a series of "Martial Techniques" more or less equivalent in power to the various caster Cantrips, especially those in the SCAG, for classes of the more martial persuasion to gain. My biggest goal was to avoid stepping on the Battlemaster Fighter's toes. These certainly dip into her area of expertise, but don't gain any Superiority Dice bonuses, functioning more like "At-Wills" from 4e than anything else. This is a first pass, and I'm planning to let the group I DM for use these at our next game.
Okay, let's take a look at the design.

First nitpick "basic attack" isn't a term in 5e. It doesn't mean anything. The phrase "On your turn, decide if you will use a technique, a basic attack, or some other ability." should probably simply read "As an action, you can use a technique." (I'm not sure why the techniques all have an "attack speed" anyway, given it's always 1 action.)
Also, because it's not an "Attack action" it would cut out anything that triggers off that. Like two-weapon fighting. So you don't need to call that exception out in the rules.

The long list of specifically exempt features is problematic. Any time you need to give a "but..." to a rule, that means the rule isn't concise and generally means it needs to be revised or rephrased.
Many of the restrictions seem unnecessary. Why can't a ranger cast a bonus action spell at the same time? Especially if these are balanced as a cantrip. Now, I imagine this is so you don't combine hunter's mark with the attack. But this is a kludge balance fix, and there's no in-world reason the spell ceases to function for one round when the ranger decides to use a technique instead or a regular attack. This just leads to rule questions: does the spell end? Does it just not have any effect and resumed the next round? That's just weird.
Cutting the rogue's Cunning Action is just strange. It's an unrelated action. And still doesn't really balance well with the rogue in terms of DPR.
This also stacks completely with the Champion fighter with no restriction. It's straight power creep.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not sure why there's an "attack speed". Or why there's a "target" mentioned either. That just seems to be there to match the formatting of cantrips, but isn't necessary as there's no techniques that take 1 minute or target the self or an object. Although, I suppose there *could* be.
Upon writing that, thus actually makes me think. Why can't a fighter use a technique against an object? Devastating Blow could be used on a door.


The overall problem with this design is the majority of powers are damage plus. You deal the regular damage of an attack plus the extra effect, which is supposedly to be roughly equivalent to a cantrip's bonus. However, cantrips generally don't add their caster's ability score bonus to damage. Cantrips justify their extra effect by being lower damage. *Some* casters can add an ability score, but that's as a result of a class feature. Gaining the extra damage to cantrips comes at the expense of another feature or ability.
This isn't the case with this. Across the board this just lets the martial characters deal full damage and have a kicker effect. There's no cost or trade off. Except the odd list of exceptions that may or may not actually come into play in any given round. Not being able use Reckless Attack isn't an issue when you're raging anyway, or hitting a low AC target. A restriction that doesn't restrict makes for poor balance.

The extra damage at higher levels is odd and problematic.
The extra damage in cantrips is there to help keep casters in line with multiple attacks. I'm not sure the design works as well here.
First, the static damage dice is a damage boost to small dice weapons (daggers, short swords) but a damage drop to most two-handed weapons. Someone like the barbarian takes a big damage hit when they get Extra Attack to use this. It's also all-nothing: a barbarian or great weapon fighter has one chance to deal 2d6+1d8+4 damage once or two chances to do 2d6+4 damage. The average damage is fairly close, but there's a better chance of hitting at least once and the maximum damage if the barbarian hits with both attacks is much higher. Plus with two attack rolls there's a greater chance of a critical.
However... after level 11 things changes as all classes but the fighter no longer gain extra attacks. So the techniques experience a jump in power. I imagine this is why rangers and paladins can't use spells, but the barbarian is not as limited.
There's also the rogue issue. Rogues don't get multiple attacks. Their damage increases via sneak attack instead. So they get a flat damage boost from these attacks. There zero reason not to spam a technique. Especially for an assassin, since the bonus dice would double on a critical as well!
And multiclassing becomes an issue as well. Since damage scales up automatically, there's less need to get Extra Attack.


With the above in mind, if I were designing these techniques, I'd remove the action limitation and instead have the techniques do less damage. On a hit, a character can choose to forego their ability score modifier to damage to apply the benefits of a technique (or just the ability score and no weapon dice for some). Reduced damage in favour of more effects. And because the added effect comes with a set cost that always has to be paid for every technique, there can be fewer restrictions on other class features.


Thoughts on specific techniques:
Clever Slash. This is the Help action plus damage, and likely too strong. "Ally" isn't a term used in 5e. It tends to be "friendly creature" or "allied creature". You should be able to see and hear the ally as well, and a range should be specified.
Devastating Blow. Wasn't the point of this to give martials something else to do except damage. The "moar damage!" technique goes against that design.
Diminishing Strike. Does not interact well with the marking rules from the DMG. If marking is desired, those should probably be used.
Feather Me Yon Wretch. The ally making the attack should have to use their reaction.
Footwork Lure. 5 feet in any direction? Straight up!

Hamstring seems to have been cut away. It actually looks like quite a bit of text is on a secondary page that isn't visible.

Nimble Strike. What's a "square"? "At any point in this movement you may make a melee attack..." How is that different from the normal rules for attacking mid-movement.
Shield Bash. 1d8 damage for a shield seems high. There's some good design here, as it's not *just* making a shield attack, which anyone could be able to do. I'd phrase it so your ally also gains an AC bonus from your shield rather than a static +2. That way magic shields protect more and an ally already using a shield won't double up the benefits.
Tide of Iron. The narrative of this one is weird. If you're slamming them down with your shield, shouldn't you be making a shield attack. As written, you have a shield, you hit them with your sword, and they fall down.
Run Down. This is weird. So, you move 15-45 feet (since you can move during an action), potentially zigzagging through enemies to provoke as many attacks as possible, and then hit a fleeing target. And it takes extra damage. Why does it take this extra damage? How does your being more hurt in the last two seconds mean your attack does extra damage?
Vengeance Strike. Again with the extra damage...
Ardent Shield. Why isn't this just a paladin spell? Okay, paladins don't get cantrips, but there could be a variant paladin or an oath that does. Fitting this in here feels like a square peg in a round hole.
 

Some of your idea should be maneuvers for the Battlemaster or made available through the martial adept feat. Some of them should be straight up feats. Some others should simply be removed as they add nothing that isn't already in the core rule save extra dmg and it's not the whole point on how martial characters work. Cantrip for casters, extra attacks for martial characters. But some of your idea are really good. It is unfortunate that I don't see them working as you would like them to.

Otherwise I pretty much feel that Jester David's analysis is dead on accurate.

Three of them made me quite envious of not thinking about it myself.

Feather Me Yon Wretch. It would be a nice maneuver for a BM using a ranged weapon. It would make a nice change where we could see a General with a bow. It still need some work to make it balance but it is a realy good idea.

Shield of Blades That one could be a realy good feat for dual wielders. It could work as a maneuver for a BM too. My heart is torn between these two options... feat or maneuver... Both options need some work to balance though... Maybe the bonus AC could work only against one or two opponents... A lot of potential in here.

Ardent Shield That one, I feel like Jester. I really wish paly could use cantrips. Maybe a feat enabling it to be a cantrip for paly? Something akin to magic initiate? Or simply making it a cantrip in the cleric's list? I don't know yet but I fell in love with that one.
 
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Cyvris

First Post
You're simplifying things a bit.
The attack options were stripped out in response to playtest feedback. The Martial Damage Dice were cool, but playtest feedback showed that people generally felt they were "wasting" their dice by using them on anything but damage. Because tripping or stopping reactions or blinding are nice, but the best status condition to put on a creature is always "dead".


First, thanks for the direct review and feedback, it's the actual crunch these needed to help beat it into shape.

Now then, sure dead is nice, but that status won't be imposed immediately. Combat is going to last at least a few rounds. Getting direct tactical options outside of that make each round more engaging. Some players don't like that and it's fine. Limiting such tactical thought to casters isn't the way to go though. If they can slow someone down with magic or push them around, the Fighter with a massive sword should be able to do the same.

Okay, let's take a look at the design.
I'll admit there is a great deal of "kludge" there. I've gone back and forth between allowing class abilities with them and not. For the most part it probably wouldn't break that many things to let things like "Smite" be used with this, but at the same time I wanted to prevent the Ranger from using two of these when attacking with things like Horde Breaker. Wording like "target" and "attack speed" were mostly to have them match how spells are written, though that wording could be cleaned up. Honestly as a DM I have no issue with players using techniques or abilities like these against inanimate objects. My 4e group once had a sci-fi game where "Ray of Frost" was used to freeze a cyanide tooth so the NPC that had been taken prisoner couldn't use it. Using abilities in inventive ways is always the best.

Sure "locking" the design space of an "attack" down can be bad at times, yet Spells have always been VERY specifically worded, so I think some specific vs general abilities for Fighters, Rangers, and Rogues is fine as long as the whole table agrees.

The overall problem with this design is the majority of powers are damage plus. You deal the regular damage of an attack plus the extra effect, which is supposedly to be roughly equivalent to a cantrip's bonus. However, cantrips generally don't add their caster's ability score bonus to damage.
Short fix-casters now add ability score to damage, monsters get a minor HP bump. Buff everyone, don't nerf. I do like the suggestion of forgoing ability mod to deal additional damage, and think either could work.

The damage scaling is funky, I agree. I couldn't word things correctly, so just slapped a static increase on it. Something like "deal an additional weapon dice of damage" might work, but the wording need to be tight.

The direct break down of each power is helpful, especially catches on things like "square". I'll review the powers, trashing some of the extra damage ones for more effects. Some of those were pulled from when this was separate techniques for each class, and most of the damage ones come from the Barbarian specifically. Ardent Shield was a similar technique and one I just didn't want to toss out. Sure it channels a bit from WoW and Captain America, but it just seems to "fit" the Paladin. Been toying with an Oath that gets "Divine Challenge" from 4e, so maybe those will get lumped together.

Some of your idea should be maneuvers for the Battlemaster or made available through the martial adept feat.

The idea was these would fill the gap of "at-will" vs Battlemaster's "encounter" attacks. They certainly step on its toes, but don't gain superiority dice so are decently weaker. The original draft had a great deal of the 4e Warlord split between the Fighter and Ranger, which is an archetype it would be nice to see return in force. Again, I'm going to play around with eliminating the extra damage and focus more on effects. These are certainly powerful, but that is half my intent. The recent SCAG cantrips really step on the toes of Martial characters and how that something like that COULD be done pretty easily.

Paladin Cantrips (and more for the Cleric) is something I've wanted for awhile. This seemed the best way to backdoor them in, but now I like the idea of an Oath. Indeed, I'm now almost toying with the idea of taking these Techniques and Superiority Dice and making Archetypes for all of these classes that hew closer to a 4e set up. The Knight brought back Marking so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch.
 

Xeviat

Hero
I will come in and digest these tomorrow. I'm very interested. This has been something I've wanted to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Xeviat

Hero
Okay. So, since these Techniques don't give up much compared to a normal attack, I'm not sure they're really comparable to a cantrip. Maybe they're comparable to Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade, but those are gishy cantrips and require MAD to function at their best.

I'm fine with them costing an action, and I'm perfectly fine with them bringing back terms like "Basic Attack". Here's a few of my thoughts:

First, make the current attacks that characters have into their standard Martial Technique. This removes the ability to stack. Fighters get "Extra Attack", giving them an attack at 5th, 11th, and 17th (just like eldritch blast). Paladins get "Holy Strike", giving them radiant damage as they level up. Rogues get "Sneak Attack". This would require more changes, but it will help you to avoid the stacking that you're worried about.

Second, I think the Techniques need to give up some damage. Until 5th level, they aren't costing most characters anything. Depending on the maneuver, just dealing weapon damage or just dealing ability score modifier damage would be appropriate; they're fairly close to each other by 4th/8th level. 4E didn't have most at-wills cost damage, but that's also because the baseline at-will was 1[W]+Primary Ability+Secondary Ability, so they were generally paying with their secondary ability.

Again, I'm very interested in this. Martial Techniques as side by sides with Cantrips would be a great way to expand upon the game. I'd go a few steps further, and have different techniques that come with proficiency in each weapon/group (and change how proficiencies are earned, so they fall in with cantrips) and add a few class based techniques. But I'm also more willing to made sweeping changes instead of just looking at one thing.
 

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