D&D 5E Martials should just get free feats

[EzekielRaiden]

Assuming maximum dex on the Wizard (which is a big assumption)

No, it's not. Not at level 17+. You have four ASIs at that level. Int would be maxed out by level 8. Dex by level 16. At max level, you even have a free feat to play with (or get more Con.) If you qualify, Elven Accuracy is even better.

Not "at most". Using only class abilities and no feats "at most" the tanky fighter will put out 44 damage (4d8+28) average if all hit. The wizard with 4d10 is doing 22 or half of that.

Uh...where is this +28 coming from, exactly? You get +5 from stats, giving +20 only at level 20. We aren't assuming any bonuses, and a +2 magic weapon would absolutely be a bonus. If the Fighter is getting a +2 magic weapon, the Wizard should absolutely be getting a +2 magic focus (presumably the arcane grimoire), which means we'd need to start accounting for accuracy to properly reflect the differences.

How many creatures CR 15 or higher have weak wisdom saves?

Is that actually relevant to the criticism? You're the one who brought up toll the dead in the first place. I was perfectly happy sticking with fire bolt, since it actually can crit (unlike a saving-throw-based spell.)

64%, even if it is true, is less than 100%

It's still much, much, much too high. Your claim was less than 40%. It's not, and my numbers conclusively prove that. It's easily two-thirds, even if you AREN'T specialized in damage-dealing. If you are, the gap disappears almost completely; imagine if I had instead looked at Evoker or War Mage!

A Wizard doing two thirds to four fifths of the baseline damage of the Fighter, while having miles and miles better non-combat ability, is not acceptable. Period. Add onto that a Bladesinger that actually outclasses the Fighter at net defensive ability, and what exactly is the Fighter supposed to be bringing? The one thing it's good at, it's only very slightly better than the guy who can rewrite reality once a day!

People started talking about spell mastery, which is 18th level and you are splitting hairs here.

So it's totally fine to start splitting hairs about CRs and which saves are commonly good, but not fine to split hairs about other things? Your double standard is showing.

A Bladesinger concentrating on Shadowblade with no temp hps will not last two rounds in melee against most difficult foes she will face and her shadowblade often won't last one round due to crappy concentration saves. Also Shadow Blade and Bladesong are both a Bonus Action.

While the bonus action thing is fair, you can start Bladesong first and then bring the blade in after. The Concentration thing is simply wrong, however. Bladesong gives +Int to Concentration saves. You can potentially have some of the best in the business, especially with Custom Lineage (which is better than almost all other options for Wizards.) And that's before factoring in the protective bonuses from Song of Defense (which I had not mentioned because that requires, effectively, casting spells--but which, by its wording, does let you reduce the DC of Concentration saves, because it reduces the damage before it's actually dealt to you, albeit at the cost of your reaction.)

To reiterate the original claim I disagreed with was that a Wizard can be 95% of the tankability of a fighter while doing as much damage. That is not true. 80% overall I agree with. 130% of the tankability while doing substantially less damage I agree with. Doing as much damage while being much less tankable I also agree with.

So...who's splitting hairs then?

The Wizard contributes almost as much through offense as the Fighter does at baseline. If we add in non-baseline (that is, consumable resources), the Wizard instantly blows the Fighter out of the water without needing to spend more than a quarter of their daily resources. E.g., two level 5 spells, which you can get back with Arcane Recovery. Per the DMG, that's two bouts of 8d10 against a single target, or 8d6 against multiple targets. Going with the latter, so long as you properly damage at least two targets each time (or target at least four, given half damage on a miss), that's 32d6 = 112 damage. From two spells. That you can then immediately regain with Arcane Recovery.

Even if we take the extremely generous tack of assuming the Fighter is guaranteed to hit with every attack made under Action Surge, that's only 2×(base attack damage)×(number of attacks per Attack)×(number of rests per day) bonus damage. Few groups get more than 2 short rests per day, for a total of 3 recharges of Action Surge (one from long rest, two from short rests.) 2×(1d8+5)×(4)×(3) = 24*9.5 = 228. So the Wizard, with just two spells, gets (almost exactly) half of all the bonus damage a Fighter can inflict IF every single one of those 24 additional attacks lands. Probably the best choice is synaptic static, given its excellent damage type and that it's an Int save (which even your vaunted Red Dragon would struggle to make--as would most non-gem dragons, actually.)

So...yeah. With four spells like the above (full damage on two targets, half damage on four, or full damage on one and half damage on two), the Wizard almost perfectly matches the Fighter class's main claim to fame, Action Surge, when every attack is guaranteed to hit, which isn't even remotely likely. That's four 5th-level spells--which, sure, isn't a trivial expense. But they've still got (in total) just as many 6th+7th level spells, another 5th still in the tank, and several 3rd and 4th level spells, all of which can be put to whatever use the Wizard sees fit.

How easy it is depends entirely on how you roll.

There's no need to roll. You can do it with point-buy. That's what I was using. Start with 14 Dex, 15 Int and get +2 Dex and +1 Int from your racial bonuses (which means Eladrin, High Elf, Mark of Passage Human, or certain Tiefling variants, if your DM is a stickler about that; otherwise, whatever tickles your fancy, though High Elf is quite nice for the bonus cantrip. If your DM is flexible and lets Half-Elf juggle their +2 around, even better, since then you can get the cantrip and a point of Con.)

 

[TwoSix]

Uh...where is this +28 coming from, exactly? You get +5 from stats, giving +20 only at level 20. We aren't assuming any bonuses, and a +2 magic weapon would absolutely be a bonus. If the Fighter is getting a +2 magic weapon, the Wizard should absolutely be getting a +2 magic focus (presumably the arcane grimoire), which means we'd need to start accounting for accuracy to properly reflect the differences.

Don't have a horse in the race (please don't involve me in this discussion!), but I would assume the additional +8 is from Dueling Fighting Style.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes, but you said 95% of a fighter. 2 hps is 33% less than a fighter and they start with a much worse AC before those spells.

95% tank not 95% hp... fighters have a good AC (but all classes can normally end withn 2ish of each other) but a wizard can drop a shield for +5... and the bladesinger will almost always be better AC thent he fighter prof time per day.
the war cleric and hexblade will almost always have the same AC as an equal fighter (I would NOT recomend the hexblade use shield but if they have to it is good)
the sword bard is the anomoly that most likely will not have the AC or the ability to negate attacks
the druid is SUPER weird with wildshape being impossible to nail down

To be clear I said if they focus on doing 95% of the tankability they won't match the damage. For example throwing up blur or PEG and then mirror image while sporting precast mage armor and max dex will roughly equal a fighter in plate and shield without any fighting style or subclass abilities to boost AC. But you took 2 rounds to do that, are way behind the fighter before you even start damaging and your cantrips do less damage.

I rarely see a caster with more then a 3pt spread with a fighter (baring a super optimized fighter) all the classes tend to bunch up in the 17-20 range. Mage armor lasts all day I rarely see mirrior image used (but not never) and blur is not the most common buff I have seen shield is.

On the other hand you could cast shadowblade or flaming sphere on turn 1 and keep up with that fighter pretty well (as long as concentration holds) but you will be very fragile and not nearly as tankable.

shadow blade and blade song and green flame blade or booming blade and you out damage the fighter and have the AC of atleast the fighter... take blade song out and you do have a lower AC until you shield.

Going with a bladesinger subclass mitigates a lot of this and makes you arguably the best tank in the game,

why is a subclass of wizard the best subclass in the game for the fighter specility... just this heere I think shows that the versitiiyl of the wizard (all casters) are too much... the war cleric and

being more survivable than a fighter when optimzed for it, but you will still be substantially behind a Fighter on damage.

before level 11 you wont... you can cantrip/weapon attack... at level 5 I think the fighter pulls

The key here is a Fighter does both of these well, and without using any spells. A Wizard has to choose which she wants to do.

no the thing is the fighter CAN'T choose they have 1 thing tank/damage... (TBF they have SOME choise to better AC or Better damage but it is a narrow range of choose) the casters (wizard is only 1 example) CAN choose to do that as well or better BUT can also choose to do other things... they can't do EVERYTHING at the same time they have to choose... but sometimes they can choose encounter to encounter (a prep caster with good damage and defense buffs can still have some misc spells preped) sometimes day to day and sometimes by build (I don't know many people that spec into hexblade sword pact warlock for dungeons then switch to fey tome for RP... nor do I think it happens)

That is the Versitility of the casters... that non casters just don't have. THAT is my problem... something giving fighters extra damage doesn't help....

the only excpetion is if you give the fighters enough damage and AC and HP that no caster could come close to it (say an optimized bladesinger or war cleric or hexblade with the best selection of spells can do 50-60% of that) then at least they are by far the best at what they do...

I have a ton of experience playing bladesingers and they really can be a great tank, and I play them with a 10 constitution even and still go right into the thick of combat.

I have not playeed one with a 10 or lower but I have a firend who did make it through 12ish levels (mostly the frost maiden adventure) as an elf bladesinger with an 8 con... I though it insane. but he made it work... and that DM made them roll not take average for hp so some levels he got 1hp...

But if you are not casting blur or PEG or dodging you will not survive long against tough foes.

put on leather or studded leather (best if you find a magic suit but you have no control and a DM worried about AC should NOT put one in) and have a +2 from dex gives you a 13 or 14 AC when you blade dance that adds in (atleast +3 but maybe up to +5) bringing you normal AC to 16-19 in blade dance combats... if you 1/fight cast shield to negate a hit that brings you to 21-24 AC... if you have ANY magic item boosting AC you might be better then the fighter in the party and you are down on average 2hp per level. you can cast 0 spells in a day otther then shield (far from optimal) and cantrips (especially a weapon one or two) and keep up with the fighter.

Every spell you cast in a day, be it damage, or protective, or healing, or social buff or travel, or diviniation are all things the fighter can NOT choose to spend rescouses on (they just don't have them.

So yeah you can bea fighter (maybe about 90-95% of one really) and still have more options.
there is no fighter subclass (eldritch knight is the closest) that lets you be even 50% of the wizard role.

And if you are doing those things, you can't keep up with a fighter on melee damage. It is math - when when the enemy has a +15 with a multiattack he is going to hit your 27AC often if you are not making him roll with disadvantage.

+15? what level are we talking? is this a level that you can already teleport, move mountains, and discover unkknowable lore with spell slots that the fighter can't dream of doing? you fell ever so slightly behind on damage (but not really green flame blade will deal weapon plus fire to target and an adjcet will take some fire, or booming blade will deal weapon damage plus cantrip damage and you can do that and make an extra attack... to the fighters 3 attacks)

You can mitigate this some with upcast false life,

wow, I have never seen someone upcast tthat... do you see it often? should my bladesinger/artificer try that? is it a big help?

I was talking about using SOS spells to penetrate Legendaries, IME that is tough to do. Against Kobolds, Orcs or really anything without legendaries SOS is usually much better than damage.

but you have the option... you can CHOOSE touse the SoS on earliey encounters and save the damage for legendary at teh end (unless you spend the whole day dragon slaying... I mean if your 4-6 encounters today are 3 dragons, 1 black 2 red, then a lich followed by a demon lord then that will suck)

 

[nevin]

I don't think this is true if you consider limited spells slots, subclass abilities and fighting style. Subclasses and fighting style for the most part boost damage or boost tankability or both while most wizard subclasses do not do that.

Wizards also can't do 95% of the tankability if they focus on damage. It really is either-or. They can do over 95% of the tankability if they focus on defense (probably over 100% on a bladesinger given equal constitution in tier 2), but their damage will suffer, because to keep the edge in tankability they need to use spells like blur instead of spells like shadowblade.




But that is 3 fails and enemies with legendaries are not going to take a long time to fail 3 times. For example you are fighting an aboleth (the lowest CR I could find with LR) and you have a 20 casting stat at level 8 for a DC of 16:

Most of your SOS spells are Wisdom, Int or Con which are +6, +8 and +6 respectively in both. So he has a 55% chance of making his Wisdom or Con save.

This means on average it will take you 8 rounds (and 8 spells) before he fails a single save against you. A damage dealing martial, assuming he is not killed or incapacitated, will typically kill an Aboleth in 8 rounds if he goes Nova.

Now having a Monk on hand or multiple casters with SOS spells shortens this significantly, but burning through legendaries is very difficult to do as a single caster.

THIS...... most wizard haters underestimate how much reliable damage a martial can put out in situations where the caster is unreliable.

 

[nevin]

but you have the option... you can CHOOSE touse the SoS on earliey encounters and save the damage for legendary at teh end (unless you spend the whole day dragon slaying... I mean if your 4-6 encounters today are 3 dragons, 1 black 2 red, then a lich followed by a demon lord then that will suck)

so the entire argument is based on the wizard knowing what he's going to fight, and the DM letting him bypass encounters. iffy argument at best.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It is poweful no doubt, but if we are talking about classes only - Shield gives a wizard 18 plus dex, where a fighter is at 20 in plate and shield (or more with magic items).

I am goinng to assume that "more with magic items" goes for both... but okay

heavy armors cap at 18 (plate) medium armors at 17(half plate and +2 dex) and light armors at 17 (studd leather +5 dex)

now some work arounds exsist, barbarian and monk add two stats, so they max at 20 but since 2 +5s is harder then 1 +5 18 or 19 will be a more common max

wizards with amge armor and warlocks with shadow armor can do 13+ dex so they are back to 18 max

with shield prof you can add +2 but loose your off hand for two weapon or great weapons...

barbarians start with 12hp and get 7ish per level
Fighters Paladins and Rangers sstart with 10 hp and get 6ish per level
clerics bards warlocks rogues druids monks and artificers start with 8hp and get 5ish per level
wizards and sorcerers start with 6hp and get 4ish per level

if you want to melee (and not everyone does want to but if you want to) you will most likely prioritize hp and AC along with your melee attack. Most can only use str or dex for attack but hexblades and druids get to cheat with either wisdom or chariisma

So it is +5 to the Wizard AC, but it is not 5 better than a fighter

if the wizard is 2 or 3 lower then the fighter but someone hits what would be the fighter AC they wizard can choose to pop the shield, make it miss and get the benfit of a higher then the fighter AC until the end of the round.

and that is using every single reaction to get that, where a fighter really is "all the time" with a bunch more hps. Moreover at 20th level with a 23 AC (Mage Armor, Shield Spell, 20 Dex) you are going to be hit most of the time and you have a lot less hps unless you are burning slots on upcast false life.

the fighter and the wizard both have +5 dex... the wizard has mage armor the fighter studded leather and the defensive fighting style... the fighter also has the dueling fighting style for extra damage, and both have iness weapons, I will say a rapier just cause it's the best choose... the fighter I will give a +3 con but the wizard only a +2

level 20 before magic +s that we will say can be even
fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+5
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)
the fighter can action surge twice and can second wind once and has 3 rerolls of a save and has 2 feat/asi more then the wizard and can crit on an 18+ and hadd +3 (half prof) to phsyical skill/tools that they are not prof in.
the wizard gets 2 extra skills, and knows 8 9th level spells and can use 1 per day, they know 4 8th level spells and can use 1 per day they know 4 7th level spells and can use 2 slots worth per day and they know 4 6th level spells and can use 2 slots worth per day... they then know 27 spells under that between 1st and 5th and have 3 5th level slots 3 4th level slots 3 3rd level slots 3 2nd level slots and 4 4th level slots... AND they have 2 3rd level 1 2nd level and 1 1st level spell always prepared and the 1st and second they can use at lowest casting at will (hello shield at will) and those 2 3rd level ones can be used 1/day each for free... and on a short rest they can recall up to 10 levels worth of spells slots but only up to a max of 5th level spells... they also have 5 cantrips (one taken up by that weapon attack) that all scaled to doing 4dice of damage if they are damage causeing... but I would not suggest loading up on just damage...

now that wizard is I am SURE jelus of action surge... and wished they had it, but that hp diffrence is disceptive... someone (was it you) mentioned up casting false life... if you take a 6th level slot (I wouldn't) that alone gives you about 30hp... if you drop 2 2nd level slots (assuming you have a minute to catch your breath between encounters) 10 each and you are close... BUT WAIT, the fighter can self heal with second wind... 1d10+20hp is not great but it's not nothing (especially since we aren'y looking at a healer with these two)
the wizard will get hit less (they both get missed on any attack of 16 or less but an attack of 17-23 the wizard can negate if they have there reaction but the fighter is always missed on that 17)


BTW I did unbalance that a bit... I gave the fighter champion subclass but did not give the wizard a subclass at all... if I put warmage or bladesinger that would be unfair though.... and I don't think a necromancer or a invocer will add much, an abjurer maybe with the ward...

Agonizer's scorcher is weak damage at 20th level. A fighter is getting 4 attacks a turn, that is over 38 damage if he is a sword and board with no bonuses from subclass or anything else.

fighter makes 4 attacks wizard makes 1 (or 2 if they are a blade singer) and they do how much again?
ighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+5
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)

9ish so 36 for the fighter and 33 for non blade singer and the blade singer can get another 1d8+5 attack in for 10 more and maybe any of them can get 3d8+3 fire to an adjacent enemy

lets sayt eh wizard just stays back and fire bolts that is only 4d8 that is 20...

What I said was you are not doing 95% of the tankability of a fighter while doing as much damage and I think this is a good example, assuming max dex with shield spell you are about 80% of a fighter in terms of tankability (better AC, fewer hps), and doing about 40% of the damage.

booming blade and green flame blade seem to be ignored in this damage... the spells per day are EXTRA

by the by the wizard can make a magic weapon I think (I may be wrong) the fighter has to find one


edit: I missed dueling fighting style for 2 more damage per hit giving that fighter a 8pt bump

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes I am ignoring it because the claim is the Wizard could do as much damage while being 95% of the tankability of the fighter.

Fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+7
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)

wizard still has they'r swiss army win buttons of spells

 

[GMforPowergamers]

so the entire argument is based on the wizard knowing what he's going to fight, and the DM letting him bypass encounters. iffy argument at best.

that isn't the argument at all.... you are misrepresenting what I said

but you have the option... you can CHOOSE touse the SoS on earliey encounters and save the damage for legendary at teh end (unless you spend the whole day dragon slaying... I mean if your 4-6 encounters today are 3 dragons, 1 black 2 red, then a lich followed by a demon lord then that will suck)

Part A of mechanical problem) Casters can sitdown and make a build that is pretty darn close to fighter for both damage and AC and about 2/3 to 3/4 (depending wizard lower others higher). THIS IS ON A BUILD LEVEL... so choosing subclass feats.asi and stats around wanting to be the front line tank... you can do it (to be fair the best way IS to dip a level or two into fighter)
HOWEVER in that build you still have room for 1 or 2 things that a fighter can never do.

Part B of mechanical problem) some of those (again your not respec from hex blade lock to fey tome lock) can change day by day. You can pick some good tank stats and focus on casting other things and only prep tank spells when you want to... you can be a big strong (cleric, druid, bladesinger) that just uses at wills to be a bit weaker then the fighter and not buffed but have other spells preped... and other days say "nah today I will just do better thent eh fighter)

Part C of mechanical problem) no non caster (in this example a fighter) can say "I will like A make a build that makes me as versitile and as game altering as a sell caster" even the castery eldritch knioght is not a stand in for a wizad unless you take 3-5 levels of eldritch knight and 15-17 levels of wizard.
No non caster can switch during down time (we will even say a week not a long rest) and resecp to being anything other then some varriation on I hit hard and can take a hit.


Are there days that a wizard or cleric preps for something and ffinds they would have been better off preping other spells yes 100% seen it many times... how ever you know what I have never seen an entire set of games where that happens... not even campaign but 3 in a row is a weird annoloy...
having the perfect spell isn't EVER guarantee but you know what is, you will NEVER have the option to even TRY to have customized options ont he non caster that will help on things other then hit hard and take a hit

a 7th level wizard with 2 attacks or 1 attack and a cantrip or 1 spell against a 7th level fighter with 2 attacks or 1 attack and a cantrip or 1 spell sounds even... until you look even slightly deeper.
Assuming both started with a +3 int the wizard knows 21 spells from any school and can cast 4th and 3rd and 2nd level spells... the eldritch knight fighter can only knows 5 but they are all from 2 schools blow stuff up and protect schools...

the eldritch knight has 2 at wills the wizard 3 or 4

 

[NotAYakk]

It is D&D to have a character that runs 100' up a waterfall and cuts the head off a dragon.

However to do this in most D&D games you need magic items. A potion of haste, winged boots, etc.

I'm just confused as to what it has to do with more feats for martial classes in D&D5e.

Being able to run up a waterfall is not god-tier.

My actual play level 7 barbarian with winged boots can do it. They can rage, move 60' strait up the surface of the waterfall, and attack twice at the top.

But he can't cut a mountain top off. So I guess that is the god tier bit?

If I replaced those boots with items that let me fly twice as fast, but fall if unsupported, and I added some cheap grab-type operations, I could do a lot of what people are asking for high level martials to be able to do.

It has been known since 3e that "more feats" doesn't really fix much, because either you get feats that stack in strange ways that let you do one super buffed maneuver (the 3e power attack or trip stuff), or you run out of a stack and end up taking feats you rejected the first time around as additional options.

This is in practice.

In comparison, look at 4e powers. People did find ways to "stack" multiple powers by picking powers that used different action economies (minor, reaction, standard, ongoing from previous turns), but for the most part 4e powers resisted "you buy stuff that makes you better and better at that one thing". The Ranger class design failed, as stacking taps ended up dominating (so you got a lot of powers you could burn as fast as you can, each adding more taps).

Feats in 5e are a mixture of 3e feats and 4e powers in my experience, leaning a bit too heavily on 3e style. Adding more of them will up mechanical complexity way more than it fixes any capability gap.

...

OneD&D epic feats are interesting, but they show up really late. Here we have feats that you can't have taken 10 levels ago and chose not to.

In 4e they tried this with paragon tier and epic tier feats. OneD&D is going to have feats with level requirements.

However, I doubt they'll go far enough.

I doubt there will be a T2/T3 feat that lets you fly at twice your movement speed but you fall if unsupported at the end of your turn, for example. From the OneD&D examples, they'd consider that beyond epic tier, despite it being weaker than most T2 spells.

 

[ECMO3]

I am goinng to assume that "more with magic items" goes for both... but okay

heavy armors cap at 18 (plate) medium armors at 17(half plate and +2 dex) and light armors at 17 (studd leather +5 dex)

You are not considering shields which every martial character except a Monk can use. Yes

wizards with amge armor and warlocks with shadow armor can do 13+ dex so they are back to 18 max

If they have an 20 Dexterity, which is not common at all. A fighter can have an 18

with shield prof you can add +2 but loose your off hand for two weapon or great weapons...

Which a Wizard does not even have proficiency in. The point is a fighter can use any weapon the wizard has proficiency in and use a shield.

And to go back to 20 dexterity that Wizard's routinely have, the best melee weapon a wizard is proficient in which is usable with that 20 dexterity is a dagger!

Not only can a fighter have an 18 while also using 2 handed weapons, they can have a 20 while using a plethora of 1d8 weapons.

barbarians start with 12hp and get 7ish per level
Fighters Paladins and Rangers sstart with 10 hp and get 6ish per level
clerics bards warlocks rogues druids monks and artificers start with 8hp and get 5ish per level
wizards and sorcerers start with 6hp and get 4ish per level

if you want to melee (and not everyone does want to but if you want to) you will most likely prioritize hp and AC along with your melee attack. Most can only use str or dex for attack but hexblades and druids get to cheat with either wisdom or chariisma

if the wizard is 2 or 3 lower then the fighter but someone hits what would be the fighter AC they wizard can choose to pop the shield, make it miss and get the benfit of a higher then the fighter AC until the end of the round.

the fighter and the wizard both have +5 dex... the wizard has mage armor the fighter studded leather and the defensive fighting style... the fighter also has the dueling fighting style for extra damage, and both have iness weapons, I will say a rapier just cause it's the best choose... the fighter I will give a +3 con but the wizard only a +2

The fighter can have a BOTH 20 strength and a 20 dex, get it earlier than a wizard with the same rolls can get a 20Int and 20Dex, have more hit points and a higher constitution to boot (due to the extra ASI) .

So there is no combat-related reason such a fighter will be in studded leather when he could just as easily where plate and have a better AC.

If the Wizard is going to boost his dexterity all the way to 20 to get that 18 AC and bolster your strawman argument, then the dex-based fighter is certainly going to boost his strength to at least 15 to be able to do the same thing. If that extra poinf AC is enough for the Wizard to take multiple ASIs to get to 18, then it is worth it for the fighter to take fewer ASIs (or just start with a 15) to get it.

Which brings up another good point - If we are playing on point buy, the Wizard can start with a 16AC if he invests heavily in dexterity. The dex-based fighter only needs to invest 15 in strength to be able to use all armors, effectively making 18AC possible at 1st level, (without a fighting style) while requiring less initial investment than a Wizard needs to get to 16. Assuming the Wizard maxes intelligence first, ignores Con for ASIs and takes no feat, at 16th level he will finally get to where the Dex-based fighter was at 1st level with a smaller off-main stat investment..

level 20 before magic +s that we will say can be even
fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+5
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)
the fighter can action surge twice and can second wind once and has 3 rerolls of a save and has 2 feat/asi more then the wizard and can crit on an 18+ and hadd +3 (half prof) to phsyical skill/tools that they are not prof in.

Ok this is all over the map.

1. The fighter using a rapier is going to have a AC of 21 as illustrated above since he will be wearing plate and a shield, or alternatively he will have a 20 AC and be doing 1d8+7 with dueling. Why would he not be wearing plate and a shield when using a rapier?

2. It looks like you are using subclasses here and chose an extremely weak Champion as your fighter. If you did that you forgot to add the second fighting style which means he has BOTH dueling AND defense.

3. I am not sure what you are doing for the Wizard number here. If you are looking at a bladesinger with a 20 dex and 16 intelligence the actual damage is in bladesong 1 attack 1d8+8, 1 cantrip attack 4d8+8

So to correct the fighter numbers, since the actual attack bonuses are the same we will assume all hits:

Fighter: 1d8+7 with crit on 18+ is 12.175 per hit or 48.7 per attack action. With 6 fights a day, 2 fights per short rest and 4 rounds per fighter gets 30 attack actions a day (24 actions, 6 action surges). Total melee damage for the day is 1461 damage (assuming all hits)

Wizard: 5d8+14 is 39.625 damage per attack action in bladesong. He gets 24 attack actions total melee damage for the day of 951 or roughly two thirds of the damage the fighter does

That is damage for a crappy fighter subclass against a Bladesinger in Bladesong which is the best melee wizard. Put a better fighter in there and you will run away even more.

You say it is equal but it is not even close.

BTW I did unbalance that a bit... I gave the fighter champion subclass but did not give the wizard a subclass at all... if I put warmage or bladesinger that would be unfair though.... and I don't think a necromancer or a invocer will add much, an abjurer maybe with the ward...

How do you add intelligence to your cantrip damage if you were not using a subclass?

The numbers I gave above are for a bladesinger and they are way behind a basic crappy champion at that level. Not a little behind, way behind and they don't consider things like using actions to cast false life, defensive spells in combat, more than 6 fights (out of bladesong) or losing bladesong mid fight.

Now on the defensive side, I agree a Wizard can be every bit of the tank a fighter can. A better tank in fact than a fighter can ever manage if optimised for that. But such a wizard will not keep up in melee damage. It is not even close. To keep up in melee they need to use offensive melee oriented spells (shadowblade, haste, Spirit Shroud etc) and if they do that they will not be as effective at tanking.

One other thing to note on hp is they are a daily resource, not just a total resource. A fighter with 180hps and 3 short rests a day has the hit points he ends his long rest with plus the hit points in his hit dice plus the hit points in second wind 3 times a day. A fighter with 180hps total will have between 347.5-437.5 hit points per day to "spend" depending on how many hit dice he starts the day with. A Wizard with 120hps total has between 180-240hps per day to spend (not including any from false life). This matters when you are talking about how much damage a character can take over the course of a day.