right cause getting a shield prof is easy, and aagain anyone can get it... so no that didn't enter in, and at best gives the fighter a +2 AC but also the warcleric and I think hexblade and valor bard but I would have to check... if your argument is that shield prof is equal to having 3rd+ level spells you are in a bad postion already... let alone 9th level spells.
It gives the fighter a 20AC and is universally available as part of their class. You were talking abotu a fighter and an 18 AC, but why would you be playing such a character when you could easily have a 20
I said it would give a fighter a 20 or 21AC (not 17, not 18 which the numbers you were throwing around) while also doing twice as much damage in melee as the wizard cantrip numbers you posted. Literally twice as much.
Who said it was equal to 3rd and 9th level spells? I never said that.
if stats are equal to start fighter has 1 feat/ASI bonus over the caster at level 6 (so by level 12 witch is the entire game for most people, and more then half the game for everyone) and 2 feat/asi by 20th (16th or 17th I think)
1 ASI is two more points. Morover when talking about melee the fighter is generally less MAD and can make strength and dexterity and constitution his three highest stats. It is more difficult to build a Wizard to do this
Finally your whole arguement is the Wizard can easily have a 20 Dexterity. Doing that on point buy before level 12 means at most he has invested 2 points in intelligence OR taken 1 feat.
here we go... the champion is the defualt... I gave it cause it is easy. you want to try to run something better (my guess will be rune knight or psiknight) you will be at the same for atwill output EXCEPT loose that 18+crit
In a discussion focused on both tanakability and DPR a Rune Knight is one of the better ones (Battlemaster is the best but the math for that is overwhelming).
Being able to crit on an 18 adds less than 4DPR to the champion build. The Rune Knight has that beat by a mile because he makes one eitght of his attacks at advantage, gets an extra 1d10 damage per round (and he can float it to a different attack if he misses). On the tankability side the RK gets resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing as well as the ability to transfer an entire attack to someone else and restrain one enemy a short rest.
notice I didn't give the wizard a 20 Int at all... if you WANT TO MELEE you most likely will put dex and con over int.
Sure. But you did give the Wizard an intelligence bonus to his cantrip that he does not gdet as a class feature.
maybe I will give you this... I just am not used to seeing fighters with 15+ dex wearing heavy armor since they can't use there dex in it (exception is the barbarian subclass from middle earth that lets you use full dex in any armor... I have seen that end up with plate(full or half) + high dex) in theory you could get 1 more with plate I just don't see it often enough to have thought that way.
Yes they can use dex in it. They have disadvantage on stealth checks, they do not have any penalties on any other dexterity checks, and disadvantage is not the same as auto failure.
once again, okay fair enough +1 higher AC for plate.
Or actually +3e more for plate and a shield/
I may just have missed it but what class or background gives you plate at 1st level?
I said possible, not available. Moreover it is going to take your max out dex Wizard 8 levels to get there, while investing more in an off-stat.
here we go... the champion is the defualt... I gave it cause it is easy. you want to try to run something better (my guess will be rune knight or psiknight) you will be at the same for atwill output EXCEPT loose that 18+crit and half prof to a bunch of skills to get some (admitidly more fun) tricks a few times per day... but nothing on par with a 5th level spell, most likely you wont find something like a 3rd level one but for sure the 2 6th 2 7th 1 8th and 1 9th level spell the wizard has alone not countign the other 5 levels will blow those options away so it wont help.
The half proficiency to a bunch of skills is irrelevant in a discussion focused on melee damage and tankability only (as for that matter is access to 9th level spells if you don't use them for one of these things).
What 7th level spell is going to give the Wizard more tankability or melee damage? Your arguement is this is important to doing these things, tell me what spell you are going to use for that (I know what I would use).
the base weapon is 1d8+5 plus 3d8+3 fire and an ajacent creature takes 3d8+3 fire.
Ok to start with Green Flame Blade does not add your intelligence modifier to the creature you attack with it. I have said this a few times now. The only ways to do that which I know of are to play school of Evocation-Evocation mastery or School of Bladesinging-Song of Victory.
Second in the uncommon situation where there is a 2nd enemy next to the first you are doing 7d8+8 damage total, which is still substantially less than the champion fighter doing 4d8+28.
that is 2/3rd damage if the wizard never has an adjacent enemy to green flame
Where do you get 2/3rds from?
4d8+5 is
23.9DPR
A base fighter with no subclass is doing 4d8+28 is doing
46.9DPR, with dueling and no subclass (i.e. no crit on a 18).
23.9 is A LOT closer to 50% than it is to 2/3rds.
and if the wizard never takes 1 round to use a high level spell. just at will (and only 1 of 5 at wills the wizard has) your math does 2/3 the damage. that is the best the fighter can do and the least the wizard can do.
It is 50% less.
Instead of going on and on about these theoreticals post some actual spells with real numbers that are going to accomplish what you claim - 95% of the tankability and 100% or more of the melee damage simultaneously for the course of a day.
congrats that is the best example I have ever seen. A wizard useing an atwill cantrip (1 of 5) and a fighter useing all his action surges and getting 2 short rests to keep reuseing them the fighter does 1/3 more damage.
That is exactly what I claimed from the begining. to be clear this is the closest Wizard I can come up with and a relatively weak fighter over a normal adventuring day and it is nowhere near the same, not even close.
If you can beat it, then put up spells and numbers to do that.
that wizard still has 4 more at wills and 9 levels of spell slots.
Ok. How is he going to use them to beat the fighter in melee damage while maintaining 95% of the tankability.
blade song doesn't add to damage it adds to AC, so it is just a blade singer all day long... the blade song boost his AC over or equal to the fighter and what fighter subclass is at will giving you better then that 18+ crit and second fighting style?
WRONG. At 14th level being in Bladesong adds intelligence modifier to weapon attacks and I used that in the calculations I made.
The Champion fighter you chose to use gets 2 fighting styles, one at 1st level , one at 10th level.
or with a feat anyone can have (but that only really helps the eldritch knight fighter who I think can also grab it TBF)
Magic-Initiate with booming Blade and Green Flame Bade arethe most common feats I see on Rogues that are not an Arcane Trickster.
On a fighter is not very useful because you can't use it with extra attack (unless you are a bladesinger). So after level 5 it is extremely weak.
your best bet got the wizard useing no resources per day to 2/3 the damage.
50% of the damage, but I am still waiting to hear what spells you are using to beat it.
green flame blade adds Int to damage at 1st level then adds 1/2/3D8s at 5/11/17
No it doesn't. Go read the spell.
It adds int damage to the 2nd target only.
champion is your best bet for at will with that 18+ crit and your least fun option... BUT yes it is going agianst THE MELEE WIZARD and the fighter is useing all of there resources (action surge) and the wizard is useing non of his (spells). and you STILL got to 2/3rd.
50% but whos counting?
No I would not consider casting false life in any battle unless I was brain dead...
Then you are not going to match 95% of the tankability of a fighter at that level, even with a higher AC. False is the only spell you have as a Wizard that can give you hit points and you will be losing them very quickly.
why is that wizard useing all 3-5 of his cantrips everyturn? because if not greenflame blade is all I used and by YOUR math that at will is 2/3 the out put of a fighter...
Because that is the idea. Melee you know .... what this whole discussion is about.
in your mind is the tanking wizard useing every single spell slot to tank too?
Ok. I have played this build A LOT. 95% of the leveled spells cast are one of the following:
Contingency(with a 5th level false life to trigger on low hit points)
Mage Armor
False Life
Haste
Blur
Absorb Elements
Shield
Protection from Evil and Good
There are a host of other situational spells to use too but these are the primary ones you are casting.
That is what he uses spell slots for, including high level slots. These spells will make you a BETTER tank than a fighter. Not equal, better. That is the whole thing you are trying to do with this build. It is the theme but it is NOT doing better in melee damage.
If you start using spells on other things you will generally not survive as long.
I think the difference between you and I is that I actually have played a hard melee Wizard at high levels and I know what you need to do to tank better in melee than a fighter or a Barbarian
again I love this... second wind is cool but it is not on par with ANY 2md level spells let alone 8th or 9th (I can see a good argument that it is as good as a 1st level spell though)
Please let me know what 2nd level Wizard spell can give you 27.5hps as a bonus action in combat.
The closest thing you have is False Life which needs to be upcast to 4th level to match this, or Wish which is a 9th level spell and is an action to cast.
Note I am not counting Tensor's Transformation in this because that will seriously screw up your ability to attack and also take down your other defenses.
Being able to stay above 0 hps is the key feature in being able to tank.
I just did it with green flame blade as 2/3 the damage, so add 1 not all of those and it is better then 2/3 and that is if at no point they start at range and the wizard drops a 3rd or 4th level spell.
Except your example was actually 50% of the damage and 2/3rds is not equal damage.
I want the build that is doing 95% of the tankability and equal damage at the same time and I don't want well I can do 2/3rds and have all these spells .... of course you can, you are a Wizard but that is not the same thing. What I want is the actual build that is doing both these things at the same time - more damage, 95% of tankability
the problem is that most parties have someone that can heal (and again the wizard is not only the weakest caster for melee but one of the only ones that can't self heal), and that makes the numbers un usable...
If the party is constantly healing you, especially in combat, then you are not doing your job as a tank. Any character can tank with a cleric on standby to heal him every time he goes down.
" as the group raids the BBEG's lair can probably out-do most fighters even without AoE, or save-based spells.
