Vaalingrade
Legend
People keep saying exactly what their issues are. They're not the ones ignoring things.
D&D 5E Martials should just get free feats
W'rkncacnter
Hero
aura of protection is the big one. to an extent, divine health, and if we're going off your bizarre definition of "bounded accuracy" (which seems to be not what it actually is, which is avoiding the DC treadmill of e.g. 3e, but rather...some sort of...combat parity? i don't really quite understand what you were getting at), then smites as well.
there's other classes that also break bounded accuracy, too. expertise from rogues and bards (and technically also tool expertise from artificers but most tools are a meme honestly) is probably the most common example i've seen cited with how they catapult your chosen skills (or all of your tools for the artificer, but again...) into the stratosphere. archery is a relatively minor breakage of bounded accuracy...or it would be, if it didn't apply to god damn attack rolls of all things. shield doesn't even pretend to not break bounded accuracy.
Clint_L
Hero
The other thing I will add is that the perceived weakness of melee classes compared to magic classes is mostly a high level thing, isn't it? Like, from levels 1-10 spell casters seem pretty on par. After that they have enough high level spells that their tool kits are hard to keep up with, though fighters and barbarians are still right there for pure damage dealing, not to mention tanking. Until, like, level 20 and now your moon druid is just a solar or ancient dragon or something.
This has always been an issue in D&D. Back in AD&D, magic-users had to endure the grind (and it was a grind back then) to get to level 5 when they became somewhat useful, but eventually they reached God mode. If your campaign lasted three years or whatever it took to get there. 5e is way more balanced than that, but the highest levels are still pretty screwy.
This has always been an issue in D&D. Back in AD&D, magic-users had to endure the grind (and it was a grind back then) to get to level 5 when they became somewhat useful, but eventually they reached God mode. If your campaign lasted three years or whatever it took to get there. 5e is way more balanced than that, but the highest levels are still pretty screwy.
There's also the power of the Devotion Paladin to increase the attack bonus of a weapon.
Sacred Weapon. As an action, you can imbue one weapon that you are holding with positive energy, using your Channel Divinity. For 1 minute, you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls made with that weapon (with a minimum bonus of +1). The weapon also emits bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light 20 feet beyond that. If the weapon is not already magical, it becomes magical for the duration.
Sacred Weapon. As an action, you can imbue one weapon that you are holding with positive energy, using your Channel Divinity. For 1 minute, you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls made with that weapon (with a minimum bonus of +1). The weapon also emits bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light 20 feet beyond that. If the weapon is not already magical, it becomes magical for the duration.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I have personally and directly experienced this problem, and people I know and trust have personally and directly experienced this problem.
Full spellcasters can either completely negate or mostly solve multiple encounters per day, especially if those encounters are a mix of both combat and non-combat. To then add to this, by your own admission, the idea that a Bladesinger should be very nearly just as good in combat when the Fighter class brings nothing* of its own to non-combat situations is, precisely and exactly, why this thread exists.
Further, you are making a non-existence claim. That, purely by logic, requires a higher standard of proof. "X can be a problem in common situations" only requires that you demonstrate that it has been a problem in a common situation at least once. "X cannot be a problem in any situation" requires that you prove substantially more. That doesn't mean it's impossible; we can prove that no largest prime number exists, for instance, which is a non-existence claim. In quantifier terms, "X can be a problem" is of the form "there exists an X...", while "X cannot be a problem" is of the form "for all X..." It is harder to prove "for all X..." claims, for the simple reason that they're talking about all Xs, not just some Xs.
Hence: it is bad logic to assert that, because a few finite cases weren't a problem, it is never a problem for anyone. Which is what I said originally. These swans are white, therefore all swans are white.
* As previously stated, universal features granted to all characters equally do not count. So the fact that Fighter gives you two skills is irrelevant, because all classes do that. Likewise, all characters get a background and a race, so those things are irrelevant for whether the Fighter gives anything for non-combat.
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No one I have replied to has given a specific example or experience articulating the alleged problem.
Ok I would agree, aura of protection does push the limits of bounded accuracy. I would not say it knocks it out of orbit though, mostly because even with it your saves will not keep up with DCs without proficiency.
AOP combined with Arcane Deflection from a Wizard multiclass would completely destroy it though.
W'rkncacnter
Hero
this is a fundamental issue with 5e, honestly. the entire saving throw system is just stupid.
When, how specifically?
No one is invalidating your claims, you just are not making them. I provided descriptions of the two fighters I am playing currently where this is not a problem. That doesn't mean it has never been a problem for you, but if you are not pointing out when it has been a problem for you, then people aren't really invalidating examples when you have not really described them.
Dozens of finite cases, not a few. I have played with about 100 players in the last 5 years. I have personally played 4 fighters in the past 6 months and DMed for 2 more.
I never said it was not a problem for anyone. I said the evidence I have seen, including that large sample among other things, indicates it is not a significant problem in term of being common or widespread.
I know it exists because if it didn't people would not mention it.
Exactly all classes get a background, all classes get a race, all classes should get similar combat skills with weapons. Not exactly the same, just like the way a class uses background skills are not all exactly the same - some classes can get bonuses or expertise or spells that enhance those skills, but broadly speaking no class runs away with the skill aspect of the game so much so that other classes are irrelevant.
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Oh I love it compared to older versions.
