Master/Apprentice

[Kaodi]

I'd go with 4th level perhaps. I do not think that every " master " should be the kind that can cast fireball or fly.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

But what about your average backwater town... Would/should there be a 6th level wizard there?

No, there's a 4th level adept who tells the promising young arcanist who he studied with (sadly, never achieving journeyman level though he continues to slowly build his powers) and the young character joins the next trade journey to that city.

"There are wizards here-"
"Dog wizards! All they could teach me is to be a dog wizard myself!"
-Stranger at the Wedding

On the other hand, there's nothing to say that all PC wizards needed a master. They are PCs afterall, if you want to say that they managed to teach themselves using their great uncle's books that everyone else said were full of gibberish and wanted to use for rolling papers, so be it.

 

[WayneLigon]

I wouldn't think that a wizard needs to be 6th level to take on an apprentice, any more than an expert blacksmith would. That would especially be the case in a small village, where the highest level wizard may be 1st. level.

All the more reason for there to be some kind of adequate skill benchmark system. A blacksmith currently does need to be of a certain level to take an apprentice; typically a craftsman can't take an apprentice until he has acheived mastery in his craft. Journeymen do most of the real work most people see, but generally guild rules won't let you apprentice someone to yourself unless you're a master yourself.

About the only real skill benchmarking system I know of is in Mutants and Masterminds. There, 1-4 ranks is basic, 5-8 is a professional, 9-12 is an expert or master, and 13-15 is a true 'wizard'. Someone with 16+ is a legend. So, I'd say someone with 10 ranks is qualified to take an apprentice. That means 7th level Expert for the Master Blacksmith in the Big Town, since that's the earliest he can get 10 ranks - Skill focus and all that mean nothing since they just add to the bonus, not the number of ranks. You don't 'apprentice' kids to Old Fred the village horseshoe maker, not unless you want them to be scullions for the rest of their lives.

This means also that a Masterwork item will be a common occurance for a Master craftsman (roll 10 + 10 for the rank = the DC 20 you need for a Masterwork item). Alternately, just say that someone that doesn't have at least 9 ranks simply can't produce a masterwork item regardless of what they roll; they just don't understand the principles well enough.

Regretfully, there is no skill corrolary for using magic; you could use Spellcraft ranks to take care of that, which means the minimum wizard level to take an apprentice is 7th. That works out pretty good, I'd say.

Your kid who is stuck in a peasent village is just plain out of luck, as he should be. However, that's where Sorcerer really comes into it's own. That's what your herb witches and Good Grannys and dog wizards really are: people with natural talent but no formal education.

 

[Ambrus]

Who would want to play 0th!

I actually had my group play a few sessions as 0th level kids when our campaign started. They started as 9 year olds with an apprentice level (from the DMG). After a two sessions of that, they did two more sessions as 12 year olds, and then finally on the fifth session they graduated to 1st level at 15 years of age. They're now 2nd level.

Since they were intending to play a group of childhood friends, I figured it'd be fun to actually play through a bit of their childhood together.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think your master is just the level you want it to be. It makes sense if it's higher level than the apprentice, but beyond that I see no restrictions.

Isn't this the Leadership feat?

I would say no. The Leadership feat is very ambiguous because it gives you something that you may think you don't need a feat to have. I always play Leadership so that you spend the feat in exchange for absolute faithfulness of your cohort. He won't leave you even if mistreated, and in fact, that might be very common for evil characters. But anyway, a master-student relationship doesn't need the Leadership feat, but just roleplay IMHO. It is also possible that the apprentice just pays the teacher as long as he has something to learn... not much of a leader in that case, just a professionist.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I actually had my group play a few sessions as 0th level kids when our campaign started. They started as 9 year olds with an apprentice level (from the DMG). After a two sessions of that, they did two more sessions as 12 year olds, and then finally on the fifth session they graduated to 1st level at 15 years of age. They're now 2nd level.

Since they were intending to play a group of childhood friends, I figured it'd be fun to actually play through a bit of their childhood together.

Hijack - I had considered a sort of "prologue" adventure for my next campaign, in a similar mold. The players would make 7th level characters for the actual campaign, then come up with something like 1st level npc classed versions of them back when they all lived or happened to be in the same village 15 years ago. The prologue would feature a fair number of skill checks, role playing and investigating, but little if any combat, then I would spend a little time with each player shaping what had happened in the mean time to bring them to the capital in it's time of need.

 

[FreeXenon]

Aren't there some feats or other rules in the PHB II or DMG II for this sort of thing?

 

[IceFractal]

That means 7th level Expert for the Master Blacksmith in the Big Town, since that's the earliest he can get 10 ranks - Skill focus and all that mean nothing since they just add to the bonus, not the number of ranks. You don't 'apprentice' kids to Old Fred the village horseshoe maker, not unless you want them to be scullions for the rest of their lives.

In what sense do skill focus and stat bonuses mean "nothing"? Characters in the game world aren't able to see other people's character sheets. There is no way they could tell someone with 10 ranks from someone with 4 ranks, skill focus, and high Int, on the basis of their craftsmanship.

Now while it is possible to achieve Masterwork items at 1st level (4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2 masterwork tool + 1 Int), that makes it a bit too fast, so let's call a "master" someone who can create masterwork items without masterwork tools or assistance.

That means:
Prodigy: 1st level (4 ranks + 3 focus + 3 Int). This would have to be someone rare - as in PC-grade rare - as with a 16 Int they're not even using the Elite array, much less the Standard one.

Dedicated: 3rd level (6 ranks + 3 focus + 1 Int). Someone smart (12-13 is the peak of the Standard array), and who put significant training toward it (feat taken).

Average: 7th level (10 ranks). Someone with no inherent aptitude, and not extremely devoted to training, but they're achieved mastery through many years of experience.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

In what sense, exactly, do skill focus and stat bonuses mean "nothing"? Characters in the game world aren't able to see other people's character sheets. There is no way they could tell someone with 10 ranks from someone with 4 ranks, skill focus, and high Int, on the basis of their craftsmanship.


Now while it is possible to achieve Masterwork items at 1st level (4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2 masterwork tool + 1 Int), that makes it a bit too fast, so let's call a "master" someone who can create masterwork items without masterwork tools or assistance.

That means:
Prodigy: 1st level (4 ranks + 3 focus + 3 Int). This would have to be someone rare - as in PC-grade rare - as with a 16 Int they're not even using the Elite array, much less the Standard one.

Dedicated: 3rd level (6 ranks + 3 focus + 1 Int). Someone smart (12-13 is the peak of the Standard array), and who put significant training toward it (feat taken).

Average: 7th level (10 ranks). Someone with no inherent aptitude, and not extremely devoted to training, but they're achieved mastery through many years of experience.

While I agree with you that a prodigy could create a masterwork item at 1st level, I also agree that it takes the high ranks to teach someone else how to do it. A 1st level prodigy blacksmith taking on apprentices would be like Rain Man trying to teach a statistics course.

The prodigy is not a master, and due to being able to get by on instinctual talent probably never will put the effort in to be one.

Edit : also in game, where the bonus comes from does matter - synergy bonus come from ranks, not total bonus, and PrC membership always has ranks as a prereq, not bonus.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

All the more reason for there to be some kind of adequate skill benchmark system. A blacksmith currently does need to be of a certain level to take an apprentice; typically a craftsman can't take an apprentice until he has acheived mastery in his craft. Journeymen do most of the real work most people see, but generally guild rules won't let you apprentice someone to yourself unless you're a master yourself.

As it should be - we know what happens when someone who is barely more than an apprentice himself tries to take on a teaching role, now don't we?

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